Not for sale "YET"

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Not for sale "YET"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:24 pm:

My father has a completely in molested 1917
I will post the pictures , just to see what everyone thinks it's worth






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:44 pm:

Molested, perhaps. Those look to me like 1915 pedals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:51 pm:

That looks like a twin to my 17, With the black steering gear box it was probably made in August of 16.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:51 pm:

Thought they looked like 15 pedals also, until I really enlarged it and saw they are cross hatched so I'm not sure now. On the very bottom of the low pedal I do see what appears to be the typical straight lines seen on 15 pedals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:55 pm:

Shawn,

Is this T in Canada?


Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:55 pm:

It's a Canadian car. They kept ribbed pedals way later than the U.S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter -- Sparta, Missouri, USA on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 02:56 pm:

It has 1915-16 style (riveted) windshield brackets. What is the casting date/serial number?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 03:35 pm:

Is the striping correct? I thought all striping was gone by 1917.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/119719.html?1262903960


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 03:49 pm:

c82721 is the serial number


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 03:51 pm:

Nice 4 door touring car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 04:19 pm:

As for price 4K to 5K if it is running and 2K to 3K if not is my opinion. You have probably seen these discussions before and know the guesses are all over the place and condition needs to be looked at. What has been done mechanically is of interest and hard to detect.
It could be a fun car to drive or restore.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 04:42 pm:

Richard, "she" runs like a top , probably 75 miles on it on Monday alone,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 04:45 pm:

Mark, there are 3 17's we know of that have this pin striping, and are in restored , one is an identical car, about 45 minute drive from here


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

I'd guess a little higher, probably about 1K more than Richard, if the motor and other major components are correct for the year. Bring it back down to Richard values if motor is wrong or there are other significant variances beyond the obviously replaced front seat cushion. Value higher to a buyer who wants it original than it would be to one who wants to restore it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 09:06 pm:

Hi Walt, this car has been on one family since new. Apparently. Nothing other than the seat cushion has been replaced. They simply drove it, and did maintenance


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 09:30 pm:

I think Ebay will get you the best money for the car. It should get you the widest exposure. Put it on with a reserve you would accept and see what happens. My guess is it would bring quite a bit more than 5K.

Its a brother to the 1917 Rip Van Winkle featured in past issues of the Vintage Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 10:35 pm:

Pics of the engine compartment would tell a lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 01:07 pm:

ENGINE PICTURES



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 01:21 pm:

No Engine Pans?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 01:44 pm:

Wonder why the intake manifold has a 'drain valve' screwed into it. Looks like an original car that had a few minor things done to keep it going. Since its a one owner car in good condition that will be a plus in getting good money for it.

They don't show up like this very often if they do at all. This is one that could be cleaned up, new bands if necessary and driven like it is. Neat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 02:20 pm:

John -auxiliary air valve. Having issues with the Holley G, no doubt. And I am green with envy of you, Shawn. That would be a keeper if that were me. Especially if could still crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 02:58 pm:

I am not sure, but my guess is this was made in October of 1916 ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 11:14 pm:

Nice Ford!
A fella here sopped his 100 year old leather with Neats Foot oil to preserve it. Don't know if that's any help at all...
The valve on the intake: Did you folks milk cows? Been done before to provide vacuum if the power was out... So the milker would operate.
Tep tuup, tep tuup, tep tuup, tep tuup the milker would say just like an idling Ford. You guys get it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 11:44 pm:

I see an oil leak ... can't be worth more than a hundred dollars in that condition ! ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 11:56 pm:

Burger, T's do not "leak" oil,
they mark their territory


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson. South Coast. NSW. OZ on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 12:15 am:

My Canadian built '21 has ribbed pedals


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joedy p defank on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:19 pm:

let me know if it is for sale


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Friday, September 16, 2016 - 10:21 pm:

Well We have some good news (LUCK)
Spoke with the original owners family last week,
met with him tonight, and he has the original engine pans, as well as the plates off the car for 1918 , he thinks they are the first set ,
one pan has a tear in it ,but other than this beautiful condition


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 11:31 pm:

Ford Canada records indicate;
July 31 1916 serial number 70,000
July 31 1917 serial number 121,000


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 11:46 pm:

The records may still exist at the University of Windsor.
Is there a body number stamped on the floor or firewall. The body number is prefixed with the assembly factory letter. 'W' 'S' "R' etc


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 11:52 pm:

Great car but you know the deal it worth as much as you can get out of it from a certain buyer. 3500+ from looking online not running. I see them as low as $5600 to $16k running just like that. T s and A models are under appreciated in the car collector world. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 12:13 am:

Reference the "air valve" petcock. Our 13 T and both Model K we've owned had petcock added, for more air. Evidently an added feature by owners in the day. BTW, I open the valve after starring the cars, because they run better (but crank start harder) with the valve open.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 09:19 pm:

It appears I found the body tag,
serial number is the same


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Sunday, September 18, 2016 - 09:27 pm:

what does "SPECIAL NOTICE" mean ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 06:27 am:

Shawn,

I’ve been following your posting with great interest but little extra time. The car is great “time capsule” and I would request that you take lots of photos. Several of us are working to document more about the cars and that car offers the potential to fill in some missing data. Over the years some things clearly would have been changed. For example, you pointed out the engine pans that were removed but that you still have and the front seat cushion was reupholstered. Russ Furstnow recently compiled many of the differences between the USA produced Ts and the Canadian produced Ts. His observations are included in “The Model T Ford Club International, Seventh Edition 1909-1927 Judging Guidelines.” It recently came out and when I checked the MTFCI site it still had the “Sixth Edition” listed which does NOT have the Ford of Canada details (see: http://modelt.org/featured/product-category/literature/ ). They may have the 7th Edition available and only need to update their web page – but you want the latest version. The thread at: http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/showthread.php/1732-MTFCI-Judging-Guidelines-with-the-Canadian-Supplement contains information about the latest version. Russ’ contact information is listed at: http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=213&Itemid=25 top right side – he is the President and Chief Judge for the MTFCI. I know he as well as myself and several others would love to have additional higher resolution photos of the car. You can send photos to me and I will gladly forward them to others. If you click on my name at the beginning of my posting, it calls up my forum profile. My e-mail address is the third line down.

Note, the tag you found is “Not” the body tag. Rather it is the ID/Patent Plate that came on every USA and Canadian Ford (and probably those assemble in other locations around the world). Below is a sample Canadian Tag that is easier to read. I looked for, but I did not find good listing for when Ford of Canada changed size or design of their Patent Plate. I’m guessing the tag shown below is for a 1914ish – but that is a guess. I don’t know how many years either side of that it was also have been used. Regardless it will let you read about “Special Notice”. It is a reproduction Canadian Patent Plate that was posted by Christopher Kramer back in 2009.



See also http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25455.html?1172628962

The Canadian Patent Plates continued to use the engine serial number into the 1920s. The USA tags stopped putting the engine serial number on the tags during 1911 and just put a car number on the tag. And during the 1915 model year, the USA cars stopped putting a number on the tag, but they still had the blank spot for the number to be stamped but nothing was stamped there. And then they dropped having a place to be stamped.

Your car could help document when what size tag and style was used in Canada. If you would please let us know the size of the tag that would be great.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 08:29 am:

For Shawn,
“IF” the car has a body number, you will most likely find it in one of two locations although there have been others:
If your car has a wooden seat frame. Lift up the front seat cushion and look down at the “wooden” frame that the cushion sits on. [If it is just a metal channel that is part of the front seat heel panel then you do not have a wooden seat frame front seat – go to the paragraph.] The wood that runs across in front of the gas tank will often have the body number stamped into it. Below is a USA car from the more detailed posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html that illustrates where to look on a wooden seat framed car (Photo by Hap of the 1914 in the SC State Museum) :



Below is a photo posted by David Chantrell at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/244616.html?1320359605 of a 1914 Canadian T showing the body number on the front of the front seat wooden seat frame.



Note in the photo above the “F” stands for “Fisher Body Company of Canada” that like Ford had opened a plant in Canada to avoid the tariffs of sending assembled bodies from the Detroit area over to Canada. That same thread mentions that Fisher supplied Ford at least for 1913, 1914. We have other information that indicates Fisher Body Company (the actual name may be a little different – but same folks) supplied Ford of Canada into the 1920s. So if your car has a body number there is an excellent chance it has the letter “F” at the beginning of that number.
Bummer – at this point I do not have enough information on the Fisher body numbers that do NOT have a date code to be able to give any sort of dating information. In the USA, the Wilison, Beaudette, and in the later teens Fisher, included a date code in the body number. I.e. as shown in the photo of the USA Wilson body number in the first photo I included.
The other possible location at least for USA cars is on the right front floor board riser. Below is a photo of John Cook’s “Oh Henry” an Oct 1915 cut off touring. It shows where the USA plants starting putting the body numbers as the metal seat frames were being introduced (i.e. you could not easily put them there any longer).



In the above photo the 8 is for Aug and the 15 is for 1915.

Again a great time capsule. We look forward to additional photos and information. By the way, do you know when the car was originally purchased? I.e. we know it was manufactured by that date.


For Steven Miller,

I was glad to see your posting. I hope you have been doing well. You are correct that when Ford of Canada had a number on the engine side of the firewall it also included a letter. That letter indicated at which plant the car was assembled. But so far I have not found any of those Canadian number (at least from memory) except on the “improved cars.” I.e. the 1926-27 models. That is an assembly plant number and not a body number as discussed above. For additional information on the Plant Assembly numbers please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/196599.html?1299852394

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 09:45 am:

Hello Hap thanks
the car was purchased new in Shannonville Ontario
I will look for the rest of the information when I stop over at Dad's ,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gustaf in Idaho on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 10:39 am:

If this is the original finish on the car, any "restoration" that included repainting it would reduce the value. If it is the original finish, it is an original car and to repaint it would make it a restored car. To give a parallel example, a German 1916 steel helmet with 80% original finish and a complete but worn liner would be worth in the range of $500 to $1000, if it is repainted and a new liner installed it is worth in the rage of $50 to $100. This car looks like it has 98% original finish and original seats, if so, it should have the oil changed and run occasionally to keep the mechanicals in good lubrication.
Again, if the finish can be determined to be original, the value of this car would be in excess of the value of the best restoration on the market.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 11:21 am:

Very nice car. Would love to see it in my garage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 08:38 pm:

Not really clear, located to the left of the pedals




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 08:41 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Joosse on Monday, September 19, 2016 - 09:52 pm:

Shawn,
The numbers and letters in the photo are a little hard to read so you might try holding a flashlight at a low angle and taking another photo. That might make the stamping impressions jump out by contrast.
Fred


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 01:41 am:

Duey C - You mentioned Neats Foot Oil; that's petty good stuff to help preserve real leather, however, I'm pretty sure that 1917 Model T Touring seats were upholstered with leatherette, or imitation leather. I'm not sure but something tells me that Ford used a bit of real leather "here & there", but I think the bulk of the upholstry was the imitation stuff,.....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 03:05 am:

Point taken Harold. My 7-'17's upholstery (what's left) is imitation....
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 06:17 am:

Shawn,

Thanks for posting the photos -- yes, that is the body number on the front floor board riser.

Sometimes they are worn too much to ever see all the numbers or letter. Sometimes they were stamped poorly to begin with.

I tried changing the color and contrast to see if I could read it any better. But with the low resolution of 100 kb that was posted, I cannot really make out the beginning and ending which are the parts that would most likely have a letter if there is one.

As Fred suggested above shining a light from different angles may help. Also taking the photo from different angles may help. And if you e-mail me a higher resolution copy, sometimes that helps. But as mentioned above -- sometimes we just can't read what is left of the numbers. If you want to send me a higher resolution copy, I'll try to see if I can change the color/contrast etc. The best chance is to take the photos from different angles with different light angles.

Again, thank you for posting the information.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert L. Rogers on Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - 05:55 pm:

I have rubbed sidewalk chalk into hard to read stampings to make them show up better. Then carefully brush off the excess chalk and the letters/numbers should show up better.


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