1915 Touring For Sale (Revisited)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: 1915 Touring For Sale (Revisited)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 10:26 am:

Hi all,
Last week I began a thread about a widow's 1915 Touring for sale. At that time, several folks gave me clues as to what to look for to identify an authentic 1915.
After more research, I have found the following items that have been changed from the original:

1. Body painted dark blue.
2. Engine is a 1926 with starter.
3. Demountable wheels with 30 x 3 1/2 tires all around.
4. Interior is not the correct pattern.
5. Ruckstell rear end.
6. Some hardware fasteners are not period.

Several of you have asked me to take pictures so here are a few of several that I took.

My fellow hobbyist and I are only trying to get this car in the proper condition so that the widow can sell it. However, I think she maybe asking too much for a car that is not totally original.

Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 10:29 am:

Well I guess I need to look up how to post pictures. Sorry...will see what I can come up with.

Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 10:33 am:

There is a file size limit of 250K per picture on this forum. You can use your picture editing software of choice to reduce the file size, or see this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/541631.html?1431838921


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 10:50 am:

If it looks and drives great, it may be worth as much as a more correct car - but it attracts a different group of buyers :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 10:52 am:

Tom,

If the Ruckstell is a good one, it probably adds enough value to the car to make up for the other things. Besides, the other stuff you mention may put off some buyers, but attract others, and there are those who just don't care one way or the other.

Whether it's too much or not depends on what the buyer thinks. Unless she wants some obviously ridiculous price for it of course...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 12:47 pm:

More pics to come.15 Touring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 12:50 pm:

Great looking car, thanks for the pic! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 12:56 pm:

15 Touring rear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:03 pm:

15 touring top


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:04 pm:

15 Touring steering


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:06 pm:

15 Touring int


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:06 pm:

Nice looking touring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:15 pm:

I can post more detailed pictures if needed. I feel like I took up way to much space already.
From some of the things that I have looked at on this car, I believe the body is 1915. The frame I don't know nor the axles and springs.
We had the vehicle running well on both battery and magneto. However, we fouled a plug just before shutting it down for the day. I will need to go back and replace or clean up the plugs.
The widow originally was asking 20k. This number she had gotten from a local car club. I suggested that the vehicle was probably worth 15k if it was pretty much correct. I now have revised that number downward to between 12-13k. Unfortunately, she was very upset with my new figures.
Can anyone help out with my reasoning? Am I in the right ball park?
TIA
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:39 pm:

If it were correct, it'd be worth closer to 20k. I'd say as it is here, 14-15K, as it does look to be in nice condition. The wrong color really hurts it. Be great if it were a '12 or a '13.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:41 pm:

Tom, You say it has a Ruckstell, but I don't see the shift lever for it on the two front seat area pictures you posted. Could you please post a picture from the rear looking at the differential from a low angle (so the spare tire doesn't block the view), and one from the right side of the car looking at the Ruckstell shift lever area.

Also, how does the car run and drive? Does the Ruckstell work properly, or is it a used one with unverified condition and possibly worn out? Note: condition of the Ruckstell will have a significant affect on the car value.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:43 pm:

I think you're about right with your last figures, but she can try it at fifteen. She might get lucky.

The car is lovely, but is non-15 in several places. The steering column is later. Most of the lesser brass pieces are missing spark and gas levers, steering gear case, side and tail lights.

A look at the springs and hangers will tell us if those are correct for 1915 or not.

I can't tell from the pictures whether the splash shields have the proper flare at the back end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

I see a lot of non-15/16 parts and features, and some correct ones. While not a factory color, it is a nice one. I also note other details; for instance, sighting down the driver's side of the body, a well-restored or even maintained car, the tip of the body will form a nice straight line from the windshield frame to the rear curve--this one doesn't. A real '15/16 will have door latches that lift up, not in. The upholstery is wrong and the spare tire holder is much later too. One thing that make me think the body itself might be early '15 is the lack of a carriage bolt head on the sides in front of the back doors.
These are all things that I believe really lower the value to a knowledgeable buyer. Sad to say, I think the realistic price range is more in the 10K area. Makes you wonder what "local club" gave her the $20K price! Even a correct car would have a difficult time reaching that value--at least IMHO!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:59 pm:

The Ruckstell shifter is next to the parking brake. I have not yet been able to take the vehicle out on the road for a shake down. I only verified that the reverse band, brake band and low band all operate and feel as if they are properly adjusted.15 Touring rr spring15 Touring ft spring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

To add just bit to Davids post, and I am not 100% sure of this, but it looks like the Ruckstell rear end is a "large drum" rear end. This is good from the standpoint of a much better hand brake than the earlier and more common "small drum" hand brake, but maybe not good for value of car.

Also, the Ruckstell rear end necessitates (for safety) external brakes of some kind on each rear wheel. I believe that the previous owner was relying on the large drum hand brake as a supplement to the regular planetary transmission service brake. That works to a degree, but NOT sufficient for safety.

All of this to say the the value of the car will be effected by the '26-'27 large drum Ruckstell rear end, and the fact that the new owner will have to install some type of rear wheel external brakes for safety. All of this of course effects the value of the car, but I certainly couldn't say how much,....FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 03:05 pm:

Should also have said,....nice car and nice pictures Tom,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 03:10 pm:

Thanks everyone for the additional info. Yes Harold I noticed the brakes were large drum like my 1926 Touring.
The Ruckstell shifter can be barely seen in the above photo of the steering wheel right next to the hand brake.
Below is a pic of the engine which the serial number comes back to a 1926. No water pump, HOORAY!15 Touring Engine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 03:34 pm:

Hi Tom, Concerning the value of this car, ask the owner, politely, to consider the following items that affect the value:

1. Wrong color for the year of the car.
2. The condition of the engine and / or the Ruckstell is not known and may need costly repairs. Ask her if repairs are needed if she will pay for them, Or is this being sold "as is"?
3. The interior is not correct for the year.
4. Wrong year engine for the car. If you wanted the correct year engine for the car, it would cost lots of $.
5. The demountable rims are ok in my book. Visualize changing a flat on non-demountable rims on a hot summer day = no fun.

6. What is the condition of the tires? Any age cracks in the sidewalls?

Based on this and other possibly unknown factors, I feel this car is worth $10 to 11,000.00. If she would correct all these items, tell her you would pay her $15,000.00, which in itself is a high price for a good '15 Touring with all of these items correct and in known good condition.

I would also tell this person that she should sell it to whoever said it is worth $20,000.00.

I'm sorry if I seem rather strong on this, but I've been burned in the past and it cost me $5,000.00 for an engine job and a new crankshaft. The engine was "fixed" to hide a bad center main bearing, and the crankshaft broke shortly after I bought the "good running" car at a higher than average price.

Good luck,

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 04:09 pm:

Notice the front seat has been converted to a "camping seat". There are latches on either side of the seat back, and most likely hinges near the bottom, that allow the seat to fully recline and allow campers to lay flat and sleep in the car. A kind of popular modification "in the day". Could either add or subtract from the value, depending on how interesting the buyer finds this.

I'd say $13K - $14K. But, any buyer should see it in person, listen to it run and take it for a drive, if possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 04:56 pm:

Like Jerry said above, "listen to it run and take it for a drive" If you can't do that, be very wary, especially if you are buying it "as is, where is".

Sorry if I have to be so blunt, but I've been burned before.....

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:52 pm:

Thanks for the input.
No I am not interested in buying this car although I certainly like it. I have no space for it at this time and neither does my friend who is helping me get it ready for sale.
We started all of this to help out a widow lady who has sold all of her husbands cars with the exception of this Model T.
She had gotten the original price of 20k from a local car club that pretty much encompasses hot rods and 1940's to 50's cars.
I volunteered my help since I have a 1926 Touring and was capable of getting it running again.
The problem I am now running into, is that there are a few more things I need to do to the car to get it ready for sale. However, the owner is having a difficult time realizing what the true value of the car might be.
LUCKY ME!
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 08:43 pm:

Yes, camper conversion. Interesting.15 Touring Camper


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, September 09, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

Quick question: Can you take closeups of the camper conversion?
I have been itching to do this on my 20 and would love to see how they did it on this 15...
Or I can trade my 20 for this 15!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 09:34 am:

Robert, I don't know how soon I will be back to work on this 15. It maybe at least a couple of weeks if she does not sell the vehicle in the interim. If I get out there again, I will take some more pics with the seat folded down.
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 10:10 am:

I'd suggest she sell it to one of those hot rodders for twenty grand, but I'm afraid of what they'd do to it. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 10:17 am:

Camper conversion from 2008 thread posted by Hap Tucker.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Troy Todd on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 01:47 am:

Nice car. Reminds me a lot of mine. I feel for you on the job of making the owner understand the true current value. I've been dealing with the same thing for the last 4 years liquidating a collection of all kinds of stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 08:01 am:

No need to stress over it. Let her ask $20k. She'll either find that needle in a haystack buyer, or the car won't sell. After a couple of years, she can come down to a price that will move the car into someone else's garage.


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