New tires and rebuilt carb

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: New tires and rebuilt carb
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Friday, September 09, 2016 - 04:59 pm:

Probably a newbie screw-up here, but I am learning.

I finally found a shop to rebuild the carb and took it to them a couple of weeks ago. I just talked to them and the rebuild kit is still on backorder. They are a custom speed shop and I trust them to do a good job, then I figure I won't have to ever rebuild the carb again because I am only going to run clean gas. But, two weeks to get a rebuild kit? Note, the gas tank is less than 2 years old, I removed the sediment bowl with its two broken petcocks, put in a 5/16" valve, ran new 3/8" copper line, installed an in-line filter with 3/8" fittings, and am awaiting the rebuilt carb to connect it to. I read a lot on this forum about fuel filters vs. sediment bowl and decided to go with the 3/8" fitting in-line filter and 3/8" gas line.

I also took the tires to a local tire shop two weeks ago and they said, "no problem". I called them today and they have taken the tires to another of their shops where the owner is "spearheading" the changing of the tires. I figure this is good because it is a local shop, maybe five stores in the area, and I am certain that the owner takes a lot of pride in doing things right if he is now personally in charge. One can not beat having the owner take a personal interest! But two weeks. Oh well, I guess a few weeks one way or the other does not matter to a '24 TT. and I did tell them, "no hurry".

So maybe next week TT gets a rebuilt carb? Then I can really check out the motor. And tires, then I can do a comprehensive test drive if I have the motor right! Or maybe the week after, I don't think TT's ever get in a hurry...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, September 09, 2016 - 10:40 pm:

My guess is that the two week back order is because that local shop isn't aware of the Model T parts dealers who would have the needed parts to them in a couple of days. I took a generator to a local "rebuilder" who left a broken insulator in it because he didn't know where to get a new one. I bought one from Lang's and installed it myself.

If your inline filter is one of the modern paper ones I expect you'll suffer from fuel starvation. They're too restrictive for a gravity fuel supply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, September 09, 2016 - 11:48 pm:

The horse is out of the barn so to speak but your on the Forum and asking here, especially if you don't know, is what you should do. "Forget everything you thought you knew about car repairs" is what they tell experienced modern mechanics where T's are concerned and it's true. The tire guy has no idea in hell about how to properly mount those tires and he has no equipment to do it either. The Carb guy is equally at sea. No idea how or where to get parts from and I hate to say it but you might not get back what you expected because they probably don't do many carbs themselves. I wish you luck but ask here first next time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 12:06 am:

Another bit of advise,in strictly friendly manor,is to post under your real name and list a location.Many people are around to help you if they know where you are and can recommend someone close by you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 12:19 am:

What Steve and Charlie said, doubled and redoubled. And, if the online filter is that porous metal material, when it gets hot it will expand slightly.And you stop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 06:37 am:

I will post the results, hopefully soon!

The carb department of a speed shop can't rebuild a Model T carb? One the one hand I heard that a Model T carb is simple like a lawn mower, OTOH I have read horror stories of rebuilding Model T carbs. Now which is it, a simple job anyone can handle, or a job so complicated that a speed shop that rebuilds complicated carbs all the time can't do it?

A local tire outfit with five stores in the area, one of which specializes in truck tires, can't change the tires on a Model T? On the one hand I read that people used to change Model T tires on the side of the road all the time, OTOH I have heard that they are "widow makers".

Time will tell.

I began posting using my name, but changed it to "TT Newbee" so other posters would know that I am learning and will have patience with me. When I get TT running and have a few miles under my belt I might change back to my real name.

I figure I will keep everything on TT like I got it as long as it works well. The gas tank is relatively new, but the petcocks on the sediment bowl are broken. I read extensively on this forum about fuel filters and I was well aware of opposition to them before I made the decision to install one. I have one on my 21 HP lawn mower and it has worked fine for five years. I have one on my 17.5 kw generator and it ran for eleven days straight except for re-fuelling. The one on TT is big enough that I do not believe it will restrict fuel flow. If I drive a hundred miles a year I should have no problems with it. And the filter is inexpensive and easy to replace. I plan to have clean fuel from a clean tank going to my newly rebuilt carb and have a trouble free system for years to come. Time will tell.

And I will tell! If the carb shop or tire shop screw up, you will hear about it! Ditto for if I screwed up by putting on an in-line filter. I do not mind sharing my mistakes and I do not try to blame others. I gather info and make my own decisions. And I don't mind "I told you so" either.

And, thanks to the forum I do have a contact who knows his stuff and is helpful. But I had already dropped off the tires and carb before I talked with him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 09:22 am:

I've mentioned before concerning the "Black Bible" Ford manual: Ever notice when looking in that book for info that it strangely seems like you should already know what your doing? Or you've been there before but need an odd tip or bit of guidance? That's what re-building an NH carb is like. Simple as hell and easy as hell to miss something IF you haven't been there before. As to the tire guy: he has all the stuff. Is he waiting for info or someone that knows how to do it.? Understand I'm not arguing. All I'm saying is ask here first. Your stuff might have been done by now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 10:14 pm:

tt newbee, you made one more mistake with the carb repair and tyre fitters. Never give the impression that you are not in a hurry. Human nature will lead to deferral of any task for which there is an open ended time frame.

The widow makers comment refers to the rear tyres for your truck. If the lock ring is not properly seated before the tyre is aired up, it can explode the ring off the wheel with lethal force if the fitter is in the wrong place. He should at least be airing it up from the opposite side to the lockring, or better still, using a safety cage to contain the wheel/tyre assembly.

Young fellows used to mounting modern tubeless tyres on trucks these days are likely to be unaware of the dangers.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 08:33 am:

TT newbee, as others have said, it is a good idea to post here first. Although Ts are easy to work on, they are different than modern cars and have their own little quirks.

For instance, on the NH carb there are a couple of plugs that have to be drilled out and replaced to properly clean it. I doubt the race shop knows that. I sure as hell didn't. You probably could have sent it to Russ Potter and had it back by now. In fact, if they have not started yet, that is probably the best thing to do.

The tire shop will figure it out, but they may have just as much experience working on a tube model T tire as you do. The first tire I changed on my T took me almost 2 hours. By the time I got to the 4th one it was less than 10 min.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Thursday, September 15, 2016 - 06:04 pm:

Got my tires back!

2- 600-20 US ROYAL BLK WALL .... $430.90
2- F/19 600/700 TR-150 TUBE .... $76.50
2- 20X5 FLAP ... $62.74
2- 440/450-21 FIRESTONE BLK WALL.. $399.58
2- A-21 440/450-20/21 TR-135 TUBE ...$37.12
2- 21X5 FLAP ... $62.50
MOUNT/DISMOUNT VINTAGE SPEC TIRES..$180.00

Now when I take TT for a ride I won't worry about the tires. The old tires are from the '90's, plenty of tread and a little cracking on the sides. Two did not have flaps. I have the old tires and someone might want them.

I called the carb shop, the guy said he did not have the rebuild kit yet and he was "going to start bugging the snot out of my supplier". I guess that's good...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, September 15, 2016 - 07:23 pm:

My calculator will not go high enough to figure out how much you paid for those 4 tires.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Thursday, September 15, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

The tires cost $430.90 + $399.58 = $830.48.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee Thomas R. Hicks Central Va. on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 07:10 pm:

The guy at the carb shop has promised my carb back next week. The hold up? they could not get a rebuild kit from their usual distributor (like you guys said), so they ordered from, hold on to your hats, MAC's. Mac's does not have all the pieces, so some of the kit has been on back order. I know that will surprise a lot of you Mac's fans here (yes, sarcasm), but there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Without the carb I haven't done much on TT as I do have some other projects and getting her running is my next goal. She is still on blocks even though I have put the tires on. I chocked the right rear wheel, put her in high, and turned the engine over five times. The left wheel made one full turn. That means 5-1, right? If it is a 5-1 rear, what would she cruise at comfortably, with 6.00-20 rear tires? Do people put larger diameter rear tires on TT's in order to increase cruising speed?


And speaking of tires. I try not to be a pedant and I am not a picky person, but please look at the pictures of the rear tires. The tires definitely have two different sides, they do not look the same on each side. One side is what I consider normal with the sidewall smoothly coming up and meeting the tread, the other side has a large lip. I hope you can see that in the picture. Either way is fine with me, but it seems that if the lip is mounted on the inside of one tire, it should also be on the inside of the other. As it is, the lip is outside on the right rear and on the inside on the left rear. Is that correct? Does it matter? Should I take one back to the tire shop to get swapped?

I know, lots of questions. TIA, TT Newbee.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 08:23 pm:

Tell them to cancel the order to Mac's. They are going out of business soon. Utterly incompetent management.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 08:36 pm:

I have 5.1 gears in my '25 TT and can run along about 34 mph. On a hot summer day and with the stock round tube radiator it doesn't get hot. I also have a Ruckstell in it. PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

It means nothing that they are a competent speed shop. They become incompetent when dealing with antique technology...they just do not know all the little intricacies involving a proper carb rebuild, or what works and what doesn't. They just end up charging you labor for their learning curve, and in the end you get a carb with changed gaskets and poor running. The carb needs to be completely cleaned, all passages, plugs removed, not a quick squirt of carb cleaner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 09:02 pm:

The tires should look the same on either side. Have them flip it correctly


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 10:23 pm:

With one wheel stopped across a differential, the opposite wheel turns twice as fast. So if you had 5:1 gears, 2.5 turns of the engine should have given you one wheel turn if the opposite was stopped.

5 turns of the engine giving one wheel turn would indicate 10:1. Did the wheel turn a little more than 1 turn? That is what I would expect with 7:1 gears and one wheel stopped.

Regarding the tires, they will work fine, but I would want them to look the same. Have the shop flip one.

Get the carb back from the race shop! Pay them for the kit or whatever they have put out so far. They may be great but from what you have described sofar, they don't know T carbs. The NH has passages that require drilling out plugs to clean and the race shop will not know about it. Get it back, and send it to a T person that does NH carbs. It will be faster, better and likely cheaper. Russ Potter is one, there are others.

Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 24, 2016 - 10:41 pm:

ttnewbee-you DID just put oversize tires on. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine any bigger fitting on the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 12:24 am:

I am shocked. No competent auto shop will use copper for a fuel line. Copper WILL fatigue harden and crack because of vibration.
Steel fuel lines only.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee Thomas R. Hicks Central Va. on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 07:54 am:

I will take a rear tire by the tire shop Morning to get the proper side put to the outside. Embarrassing that I did not notice it until I put the tires on, but I trusted that a shop in business for years would do it right.

I will go by the carb shop Monday morning and see what the situation is. I looked through the Ford Service Manual paragraphs 867 - 889 and I could not find any info on three passages with plugs that have to be drilled out and the passages cleaned. I would like to have that info to take to the carb shop in case they have already begun. Where can I locate it?

I should have said larger diameter wheels with larger diameter tires rather than oversize tires.

"Did the wheel turn a little more than 1 turn? That is what I would expect with 7:1 gears and one wheel stopped. " You are absolutely correct, the right tire turned about 1 and 1/6 turns. I had it marked at the start with a rag tied to it, and realized at the end that it had gone over 1 full rotation. It was not what I expected, so I figured I must have turned the crank 5 1/2 times, not 5 times. Bottom line I don't know much about gearing, but I now know I have a 7:1.

That copper fuel line was not put in by a competent mechanic, it was put in by me! I have no idea who put in the 1/4" copper line I replaced. And obviously I did not know copper was unacceptable. I have seen it on other vehicles in the past. I guess I will replace it in the future, probably when I remove the fuel filter!

I thank all of you for your contributions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 09:27 am:

There is some NH carb rebuild info here:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/450004.html?1402151664


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 09:55 am:

Not sure about your gearing yet.

A 7:1 would turn the free rear wheel 1.4 revs if you turned the engine 5 times and the opposite wheel was blocked. (5 turns divided by 3.5)

You said you got 1 1/6 turns of the wheel with 5 engine turns. Are you sure the wheel didn't go 2 1/6 turns? If it was the latter that would be a 5:1 rear and you went a little over 5 turns when cranking.

For the way you are doing the testing (one wheel in the air, one blocked) the ratio is numerically halved because you are going across the spider gears in the diff which double the speed of the free wheel. So if you had a 5:1 rear 2.5 turns of the engine would be 1 wheel Rev. And if you have a 7:1 3.5 turns would be 1 wheel Rev

Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 10:06 am:

I'll repeat something from the link Joe posted. Get the MTFCA carburetor book. If this was some exotic carburetor I'd send it to a specialist like Stan Howe or Russ Potter. But this is just an ordinary old vanilla NH. That's about as simple as a carb can get. With the book and a Google search of forum posts you have available all the information you need to rescue it from the guy who has no clue about it and clean it yourself. It ain't rocket surgery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 10:24 am:

Steve is right. Clean the passages. Buy a couple buck gasket kit. Buy a needle and seat set from Chaffins since they are selling a different needle and seat than most of the other suppliers and it actually should work. Do not paint the inside of the bowl or the bottom of the carb body because the paint will dissolve and gum up the main jet.

Spend an hour reading all the different threads on the forum about NH carbs.

The things that I find people miss when they are rebuilding NH's.

1. They do not remove the old gasket from the hole where the seat threads in. Make sure the gasket is sealing against the metal body of the carb.

2. They do not unplug the hole from the forward idle passage that goes into the carb body at an angle ahead of the throttle plate.

3. They do not replace the throttle shaft which allows it to leak air and lean the mixture which makes it idle rough and stumble on acceleration. In some cases the body of the carb needs to be bushed so the shaft fits tight.

4. They put some kind of crap on the threads of the inlet or the lines leading up to the carb that works its way into the needle and seat or the main jet.

Buy an 8-32 tap for a couple bucks and a correct sized pilot drill for it. Drill the 3 brass plugs out and tap the holes just far enough in to allow installation of 8-32 allen head set screws. That makes it easy to pull them back out if you ever need to.

It is a learning curve but it's not a big steep one. The advantage of doing it yourself is that if you ever have carb trouble on the road you now know how to pull it off and fix it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee Thomas R. Hicks Central Va. on Sunday, September 25, 2016 - 06:45 pm:

"You said you got 1 1/6 turns of the wheel with 5 engine turns. Are you sure the wheel didn't go 2 1/6 turns? "

I just rechecked this twice. It turns out that the chock was releasing on the right wheel during my other attempt resulting in a wrong conclusion.

This time:

Right wheel on floor.
5 turns of crank.
1.41 turns of left wheel.

7:1

Thank you for your help on this.


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