Front axle questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Front axle questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By thomas elliott nw pa on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 07:06 pm:

After a few laps around the yard just to see the car move for the first time I was checking it over. I could see where the front spring perch was moving in the axle, I had not replaced the spring shackles yet. New shackles coming in the meantime I thought the perches looked wrong, First question, shouldn't the shackle hole point down to the back? The spring certainly does. I think both perches were on the wrong side and one seemed to be bent at more angle so I ordered a replacement for one side only. Is there some identification for left and right perches? Second question, how tight (I'm thinking TIGHT) should the perch's nut be? Both sides were very loose as were the nuts on the shackles. The front end has been apart at sometime long ago which may be why everything was so loose, like finger tight only! Can someone help me out here before I install new parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 07:46 pm:

Yes, the perch nuts should be pretty darn tight. Make sure that the wishbone ends are securely clamped when the perch nuts are tight. Tighten the perch nuts tight, then enough more to allow the cotter pin to be inserted. Use the largest thickness cotter pin that will fit in the hole in the end of the perch. Make sure that the cotter pin is captured in the castellations of the nut so that it prevents the nut from backing off!

The top of the axle should lean back if the perches are installed correctly. Here is a picture:

pic

At the back end of the wishbone (the ball end), make sure that the studs are fully bottomed out in the pan, then liberally grease the socket, ball, and cap. Install the cap, springs, and nuts, then be sure to securely wire the two nuts and studs together (don't use cotter pins, the studs can still back out). Another picture:

pic2

The wiring method shown will work, but there are "optimum" procedures for safety wiring, Google it and see. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 07:49 pm:

Left and Right perches, be sure to locate the 'tab' or 'boss' to the rear of the car.



That perch castle nut below the perch is taper sided, {early under axle wishbones '19-'20 are just flat, no conical hole) to fit up into the wishbone conical hole, so if the wishbone hole is worn away or oval, a new perch nut can help, but you may find it won't. Sometimes an oval shim can be made, other times a better wishbone or a weld repair and machine the wishbone hole back to factory.

Tighten the nut very firmly, to align the cotter pin hole in the perch shaft, and then cotter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 08:03 pm:

Thomas, if the radius rod has been loose for some time there is a chance the eye has been worn. The taper on the perch nut is supposed to be really tight in the eye. Check that the eye is not worn and the taper does indeed clamp tight before the nut bottoms out on the perch.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 08:56 pm:

Given the general looseness of things, you may find that your spring and perch bushings are worn out. I recently replaced some worn ones, and used bronze instead of the usual steel ones. I'd rather have the bushings wear instead of the shackles. The Boston Gear numbers: Catalogue #: B-911-12; Item code: 34800.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By thomas elliott nw pa on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 10:05 pm:

Ok I'll try this again, I'm breaking in a new pc that has windows 10 and I seem to have lost my first reply, I think because Marks pictures were slow in coming and I had started to reply, I do notice that the picture of the perch has the perch at the rear angle, I noticed only that the shackle hole was angled back not the whole perch! Now my question is , could the axle have been installed backwards? I did check the castor and camber when I worked on the front end earlier and that seemed right but now I wonder if it could be if the axle had been replaced wrong at some time which would explain the perches at the wrong angle! New parts should be here tomorrow so I'll be giving this a good look in the morning! Now if I am right that just the shackle hole in the perch is at the angle to the rear that would be the only way of telling the left from the right on the perches, Or am I nuts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 10:37 pm:

That's it Thomas. The angle of the shackle pins is set by the angle built into the perches, and this results in the axle having the caster on the kingpins leaning backwards at the top.
The axle could well have been in backwards, but this would make for very interesting steering!

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, September 13, 2016 - 10:52 pm:

Yes, it's quite possible to get the axle in backwards. As the diagram shows, the top of the axle should lean back 5.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By thomas elliott nw pa on Wednesday, September 14, 2016 - 12:21 pm:

So now I'm thinking the axle was backwards explaining the perches on the wrong sides, so now I check everything again when I get the new parts, haven't I seen where you bend the axle to set or reset the castor? My earlier work on the front axle checked ok for castor and now I don't see that replacing the worn out shackles will change that. The wishbone should keep the settings I had checked earlier. When I'm finished with the axle everything will be new and tight, I have learned that after 90+ years anything is possible and it takes time and money to make it right!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, September 14, 2016 - 01:05 pm:

If it is necessary to adjust front axle caster, it is done with a giant wrench gripping the axle near the spring perch. The part that actually bends during the operation is probably the front eye of the wishbone. Make sure that the front perches are installed correctly before you bend! Measure the caster on each side and adjust each side individually. See this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40382.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, September 14, 2016 - 01:20 pm:

You can't install the axle backwards. The axle is symmetrical and it does not matter how it's installed. The perches are what gives the axle the backward tilt at the top. As long as the small bosses at the tops of the perches are at the rear of the car everything should be good. I would suggest you pull the whole front end out and thoroughly rebuild the entire thing.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By thomas elliott nw pa on Wednesday, September 14, 2016 - 07:25 pm:

Stephen the idea is to completely rebuild the front end, my thought with the perches on the wrong sides could have been from someone replacing the axle, but then maybe just the perches were swapped, no matter it was wrong and now will be right. I will recheck the caster. I see no way to id. the left from right perches on my old parts other than the angle of the shackle holes, tilt to the rear. Thanks to all for your replies!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 14, 2016 - 09:45 pm:

Thomas

The perch left and right is fairly easy to determine by noting the description in the Ford Service manual (Chapter XIX, Para.684).

Right perch stamped T-274B and Left T-275B

The 'boss' used in centering for machining purpose is to the rear, so that is how you determine. Spring shackle hole toward the center of the axle, and boss toward the rear of the axle for each right or left side perch.


Right perch, passenger side, 'boss' to rear of a (USA) T. :-)

For new perches, they fit firm into a good wishbone taper hole. Should be good fit without wiggle.



Spin the perch so the shackle hole is parallel to the axle beam. Then capture the perch shaft with a new nut and tighten down firmly, align cotter pin hole, and cotter in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, September 15, 2016 - 12:47 am:

Thomas,
As has (finally) been pointed out, the axle itself should be the same no matter which side faces front, but I am confused about your statement on the Shackle holes. There should be a machining mark and boss on the curve of the shackle, it should face to the rear. Another way to put this is if you put a bolt or rod in the spring bushing hole and hold it level, the part of the shackle that goes into the axle should be at an angle from vertical. You want to put this angle part so the bottom is forward of the top, to make the axle "lean" back.
Hopefully this is all in layman's terms!! Don't tighten up the nuts until the spring is mounted, so the shackles will line up. otherwise you'll be fighting them putting on the springs! (how do I know this???---DOn't ask!! :-) )
One advantage you have is that the shackles are loose, most of us go through, Um, "Heck" getting them out! Hope your wishbone ends aren't worn though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By thomas elliott nw pa on Thursday, September 15, 2016 - 08:13 pm:

Thank you one and all! I do have it right now, odd thing my perches only had one center nubb on one and nothing on the other and I had convinced myself that the shackle hole should angle down at the rear, I can see now that in fact is wrong and why, thanks, end of Questions!


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