Well I haven't started the car yet so first I pulled the plug and jacked up the front of the car to drain it. I'm letting it sit over night before I fill it with oil+ ATF+ zinc additive. Then I'll oil the timer and fill the other grease cups.
Ah, the perennial oil discussion. OK, I'll go first. Why ATF and zinc?
Best to use 4 quarts of oil. Any oil today is better than the oils available in the twenties or thirties.
Well I learned of this mix on the forum. The zinc was taken out of oil a few years back. I've been adding it to all my old cars.
From the net "What was discovered through oil testing by several engine component manufacturers is that many older engines experience a short period of time during engine start-up where critical lubrication is insufficient between metal-to-metal lubrication points when using modern oils with reduced amounts of ZDDP/ZDTP."
Is this car new to you and the history/oil and type previously used is unknown to you? Is it your intent to remove sludge from the engine by using this mixture?
Don't understand why you do not simply fill with new good oil such as 10w-30?
The stock (Low) valve spring pressure in model T engines should not cause a big concern about using modern oils with reduced amounts of ZDDP/ZDTP.
I think a far greater concern is running the original crank shaft in a T and no mixture of oil additive will correct that issue.
Will this topic ever die?
As a newbie I just changed the old oil and put in 10W30. The old oil was really nasty and had probably not been changed for over 15 years.
I intend to run TT about an hour and then do another oil change with 10W30 while she is still warm. I figured that will be good enough. But maybe not?
is there anything else I should be doing or adding to the oil? Is 10W30 OK to use?
I will save Royce some typing. From his post a few weeks ago (http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/669236.html?1471614505#POST867530):
"ZDDP is a liquid, not a metal, found in motor oil in quantities measured in parts per million. It is not needed in a Model T, but it won't hurt anything. ZDDP started to be used in motor oil when President Eisenhower was beginning his second term. By that time the youngest Model T was 25 years old, and had never used ZDDP.
ZDDP was needed in high performance engines that started to become the norm in the mid 1950's to prevent scuffing on camshafts and lifters. This problem was brought about when valve spring pressures started to reach 100 pounds closed / 300 pounds open. These sort of spring pressures were needed to let engines rev above 5000 RPM, in order to reach then unheard of levels of power near 300 HP.
A Model T valve spring by comparison has about 5 pounds of pressure closed, and maybe 10 pounds open, in order to support 1700 RPM, and 20 horsepower. ZDDP is simply a don't care for our cars."
I do not ever remember the concoction of oil, atf, and zddp being suggested on this forum. Mostly, folks will tell you to add 4 quarts of the cheapest motor oil you can find.
This is what I had read.
I know this is a question that will never get the same answer.
By the way I thing a Dog is a better pet than a Cat.
They used to have oil, then there was detergent oil, and now synthetic oil. Does it matter what type of oil has been used or what type of oil I use?
I think it all depends on how much you drive. If you drive a lot than change it a lot. Buy a good quality oil and I think everything will be fine. As for me? I'm still adding the zinc. It's cheep and let's me sleep at night.
Dan's post is very enlightening. ZDDP was developed for modern more powerful engines to correct a problem associated with them only. It does not and can't possibly do a T engine any good. Plain and simple as many will state: 30wt. Non-D is what was recommended. Works fine unless it gets cold where you live. (Lesson learned). 10w 30 is what I switched to. And stuck with. And no magic add-ons needed thank you. One more thing: I don't buy/use what I consider to be trash oil either. Use what you want though.
My concern is how did Robert jack up the front of his Model T? The most obvious way is to put a floor jack under the middle of the front axle. This is also, in my opinion, the wrong way. Let me explain.
The Model T front axle is incredibly strong. It is almost impossible to break one. However, it is relatively easy to bend. One advertising photo that Ford used was of a front axle beam that had been twisted like a rubber band in a model airplane. It didn't break, but it certainly wasn't straight any more.
When I am lifting one of my cars, I put the floor jack under one of the spring perches. That way it is perch and front spring that are carrying the weight of the car, not the front axle. After getting one side up, I put an axle stand under that side as close to the spring perch as possible. Then I do the other side the same way.
Front axles are easy to bend. One of the favorite ways people would bend a front axle as by tying a rope around the middle of the axle in order to tow the car. This bends the axle forward, and destroys the steering and alignment geometry. Putting a floor jack under the middle of the front axle to raise the car has a similar effect to tying a rope around it to tow the car, except the bend is upward instead of forward. The result is about the same: it changes the steering geometry and wheel alignment.
To Robert Govoni: A dog is a domestic animal. A cat is a wild animal that has learned to live with Humans. You are correct.
My dad was a still operator for Shell, Pathfinder, and Union Oil from the mid-twenties until he retired in 1965. He used to scoff at oil company advertising, saying, "It all comes out of the same pipe." So what's the difference between 10W-30 from Pennzoil or Mobil and the same grade house brand from a farm supply or Wal-Mart? Price. With the big name brands you're paying extra for the big name and its expensive advertising. Any oil with the API seal on the container meets the same standards.
Go down to Auto-Zone and buy 4 quarts of their house brand of 10W-30 oil. No need to put exotic mixes of this and that together or buy some type of 'super duper' high dollar oil. Opinions will definitely vary as they always do. I think all Model T's were black. Weren't they?? Seems like I read it on the internet somewhere!
Steve - I cannot believe you would consider putting non-Energy Conserving oil in your T.
That's good advise Steve, myself I prefer Rotella T straight 30wt. and change often. Oil is CHEAP compared to a OVERHAUL, whether antique or modern. Was taught that by my Dad as a youngster, surprisingly how smart he got after I reached about 25 years old !!! Been gone 29 years and I still miss em'.
Adding ATF was recommended to me for my wood bands to help minimize chatter. I add about one half quart per oil change (to my internally clean engine) and have no chatter. Of course, I've never tried eliminating the ATF so I have no comparison.
Trent Boggess Wow I had no idea. I won't make that mistake again. Hope I didn't hurt anything.
John Codman Thanks!
I don't know about ATF but when I bought my '22 roadster from an old farmer about 28 years ago, he said it needed an oil change and that I should use a quart of MMO and 3 quarts of 30 wt. When I did this the transmission slipped badly and it took a few oil changes to stop this slipping.
Great advice about front axle care, remember also, any slickery additive that gets put into the oil also goes directly onto the bands. Thus we would never want to put in a product like slick-50 or such......the brakes are bad enough as designed.....
I have digested so much opinion from many T sources and have tried many variations. My current choice is 15w-40 (5w-30 leaks out to much)of the cheapest house brand oil and change it several times per season.....I also use chain saw bar oil in all the oil cups, marine grade grease in all the grease cups (because I live and drive in wet conditions).
Also, dogs are fine but cats are the best.....
This topic is proof that advertising works and that people will believe anything they hear. Companies that peddle motor oil and additives continuously try to one up their competition by making claims that their oil is the best and that you would be an idiot to use anything else. If your Model T engine and transmission is assembled correctly, like it was 100 years ago, just put regular 10W30 in it and you'll be fine- it won't hurt the engine/transmission. There is absolutely no reason to use MMO or ATF.
WHAT????? No MMO!!!!! How can anything survive without a good shot of MMO?
What's this world coming to?
Is someone going to tell us that the Pope is not Catholic next?
When we woke our 1919 T up after 45 years of sleep we drained the oil, filled it with kerosene, and let it soak for a couple days. Then we jacked the front up during the drain.
You would not believe how dirty it was!
We then flushed it with cheep oil and refilled it with almost cheep 10-30 oil.
Like many are saying any of today's oils far exceed what they had back in the day - or even the 50's and 60's.
Absolutely the dog is the best pet. As for the oil in the Model T, use 4 quarts.
Most important is to change it often. For the amount of driving I do, about once a year. If you do a lot of driving, about every 500 miles. Or if you go on a week long tour, before and after the tour. Remember that the T has no filter and at best has a screen (optional) under the inspection plate. The same oil goes in both engine and transmission, so there is also possibility of band material in the oil. So change often.
Since this is your first oil change, you might not know what type oil was used in the past. The early oils were "non detergent". The non detergent oils allowed particles of carbon and sludge to be deposited all over the inside of the engine. Detergent oils carry those particles suspended in the oil and will drain out with the oil. So if you don't know what was used before, you need to change it even more often, because the detergent will dislodge some of the deposits. You can get an idea of what kind oil was used in the past by removing the inspection plates from the crankcase and the transmission. If you see a lot of sludge deposits, you can assume non-detergent oil was used. If it is pretty clean, detergent oil was used.
I vote for cats. Give 'em enough food and you can leave them at home alone for a day or two. That, and they don't stink while curled up in your lap.
here is something from a farmer in Vermont, years ago I owned a hg42 cleat trac oliver tractor, this was never ment to be used as a dozer, we on the farm put a dozer blade on it and it was hard to steer, we installed new bands[they were of the fiber type] put in four gallons of 104o and 3 qts of atf. what a mess we caused our selves, at the start things went well, the longer we used the tractor the worse it got, finaly you could not steer it no matter how hard you pulled the lever back. we were told that ATF-is a very high detergent oil and so is the 1044,and for this system it was wrong, we had to take the rear end and transmission apart and flush it with kerosene and install #30 ND oil, with new bands, you could steer it with slight pressure after that. we had that tractor many years and it worked fine.GREG.
Tim: The answer to your question is No. It is the zombie of forum subjects.
I like having a dog, but I always keep a few cats also to deal with the mice.
I use MMO in my air operated tools. Also enjoy having a couple of cats around to keep the mice and other critters away. My cats have a job to do and are not house cats.
A dog IS a better pet than a cat!
Do they make an oil filter for a T?
Kind of - most of us use the transmission cover screen that the vendors provide:
I'll make it simple: 5W-30 detergent. -Period.
Awright, awright; Since you insist, I'll go into detail...
1.) A Model T doesn't run hard or hot enough to need exotic lubricants or zinc or kryptonite or dylithium crystals or any of that digital-age baloney. -A super-slippery synthetic may cause your clutch to slip, so avoid synthetics. -Avoid anything fancy.
2.) Some Model T Fords will creep forward when you start them, even though they're in neutral. -That happens to me whenever I can't find 5W-30 in the store and use something else because I'm too lazy to hunt down the right oil. -The "5W" part of 5W-30 means the oil is thin when cold. -Thick oil causes creeping.
3.) Regarding detergent or non-detergent: the Model T does not have an oil filter. -If you use detergent oil, the dirt, grit and crud that's suspended in the old dirty oil will pour out when you change it. That's good. -If you don't use detergent oil, the dirt, grit and crud stays in your engine and accumulates in all the little nooks and crannies like a Thomas' English Muffin. That's bad. -The only real reason to avoid detergent would be in the case of an old engine which has run a lot of miles on non-detergent oil. -In that case, the introduction of detergent oil would tend to suddenly release all that abrasive garbage accumulated over a long period of time and it would spread all over your engine and sandpaper its innards. -You need that like you need the wrong presidential candidate to win in November.
5W-30 detergent. -Period.
I agree with you right up where you make us think that a little detergent oil will suddenly release all the crud built up in an engine.
The truth is if you switch to detergent, change it very 100 miles about 20 times over a period of one to 10 years you will not loosen one damned bit of crud.
The detergent oil will keep the engine from building up crud but will not dissolve crud. Never.
5/30 is best for a T.
For those who know the T was designed in non detergent days you should use straight 20.
I used to use 20/50 in everything. No more.
If an engine is worn enough to consume a lot of 5/30 you can go to 10/40.
The should also make sure the don't use modern air in their tires.
All good info.
Now to settle the dog vs. cat question . . .
I'm not a chemical engineer, nor do I work in the oil industry, so my information regarding detergent and non-detergent oil is based on articles and books I've read on the subject of motor-oil (though, in my case, this has been with regard to its use in aviation). -A quick google search popped this article...
... but just because something is in print or on a website doesn't necessarily mean it is factual. -If I'm wrong, I'm wrong in sincerity—and as my wife is fond of pointing out, there are plenty of folks out there who know better than I.
On the other hand, actual experience has taught me that 5W-30 works very well in a Model T, perhaps even for some of the reasons I've given. -We seem to be in agreement on that. -
-Aaron- What would be interesting to know is: "Where do we get that 'non-modern air' for our tires???
Dog Has to be.