What the hell is going on with that tripod "thing" in the first pic ?????
A special lift for a flower basket ?
I thought the '16's had black radiator and brass headlight rings, not the other way around (?)
1916 was the last year of the Brass Radiator and lights.
Lights were not brass in '16. Ford began switching to black rims on the headlamps, side-lamps, and tail-lamp before the end of the '15 model year, apparently in July of '15. It may be possible that a few holdover lamps could have been installed on '16 models, but for all practical purposes, ALL '16 model T Fords had black trim lamps. The radiator (and the hubcaps) remained brass until about the end of the '16 model year.
Radiators were sometimes painted black by the car's owner's to "update the look" even when they were nearly new.
The '16 (I think runabout) in the second photo has interesting front tires. The right front appears to be a newer tire with tread on it, while the left front appears to still be a smooth tire like Ford supplied. If I recall correctly? I think Ford began putting treaded tires on the rear during the 1915 year, with a considerable crossover time when both treaded and smooth rear tires were used. Front tires followed with tread showing up in late calendar '16, and smooth tires showing up on many cars well into early '17. I know that I have looked at several original era photos of black radiator '17s with smooth tires in the front.
I suppose it could be possible that Ford could have mixed up treaded and smooth tires on the front of a car, but generally, that would not likely have been done at the factory. Besides, the left front treaded newer looking tire shows the white sidewall much cleaner than the left front smooth tire does.
The car also has H&D type single arm shock absorbers on the front, and looks a little bit used. My guess would be that it was a couple years old at the time the photo was taken.
The touring car in the first photo is also interesting. The windshield is folded back and down. But the top of the top frame is not as far down near the bottom of the bottom frame as I usually see. on '15/'16/'early '17 cars. I have seen them like this before, with what appear to be the "equal-length hinges" (as these do look to be?).
Many of the '15/'16 cars I see have the windshield frame folded this way? The top of the top frame lines up only a bit more than an inch above the bottom of the bottom frame. Later windshield frames have the offset hinges which hold the entire upper frame higher. The open edge of the upper glass winds up about two inches higher than the open edge of the lower glass. And the upper frame then also winds up a couple inches above the lower glass frame.
Photos like this first one make me wonder if there is a third hinge variation out there?
Just me. Wondering aloud.
Great pictures! Thank you Herb.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Herb – thanks for posting.
Wayne – good catch on the windshield.
This looks like a job for Steve or Jay or someone with a 1915-mid 1917 that has the equal length windshield hinges. (Note I would gladly take a photo of Blackie our 1915 – but someone replaced the windshield hinges prior to 1950 with the unequal style.) We would like a photo of a car with the 1915-mid 1917 equal length windshield hinges and the windshield folded down/back. We would like it taken at about the same angle as the touring that was posted above and is reposted below:
And does that angle cause the distance between the top of the top windshield frame and the bottom of the bottom windshield frame to appear similar or is it noticeably less of a distance between them? Below is a photo showing the unequal length windshield hinges. Note the legs are not lined up when folded. And it has the larger gap Wayne was talking about.
Also of interest in the original photo – note that the car body appears to have metal end caps that were introduced late in the 1916 model year production. See the Driver’s side arm rest as well as the passenger side rear arm rest.
Hap l9l5 cut off
Burger - I wonder if that tripod thing isn't to support that basket by means of some rope and a fish scale at the top in order to weigh produce.
I have a '15-16 windshield on my '21. (It's what I had in stock when I needed one, so that's what went on the car.)
The '15-16 hinges place the top edges of the glass even when folded. The bottom half of the windshield is 2" taller than the top half, so they are uneven at the bottom.
btw, I uploaded a pic of the windshield 3 times, but it's not showing up in my post. I have a new internet service; guess I need to give them a call.
Here are the pics:
(Turns out they were too big the first time around, so I can't blame my new internet service after all.)
This is one of the things that "bugs" me--'16s with brass trimmed headlights. While my '16 (Dec '15, so it qualifies as an HCCA car!)is not together yet, I am taking careful "inventory" of what brass I 'get' to have on it, the windshield hinge screws (I'm told, but see black ones on Mike's hmm), The w/s hinge nuts, the w/s retainer strip, the radiator, the steering quadrant and levers, hubcaps, oilers, and that's about it! Probably a few other small things I forgot--but NOT the ignition switch plate, by this time it's just raven finished steel.
Mike's photos show the unusual shape of the hinge pivot area, with the "bumps" connected by a raised area, another way to identify them, if you're just looking at a stack of hinges.
Neat to see period pics of '16s!
David -- The windshield I pictured is on my '21, so I didn't use any brass screws on the hinges. I believe your '16 would have brass screws and hinge pivot nuts, but I'm not sure. The 15's did.
BTW, your throttle and spark levers should be black.
Black? We found brass plating on mine. Hmmm.
On Our 16 Eng cast date 11-16-15 the w/s screws are not brass the steering quadrant is not brass but looks like it maybe brass plated the rivits are brass
I just checked and the hinge nuts and cotter pins are brass on ours. Mike what are those clips on your w/s screws?
So, at no time were T's built with black (steel) radiator shell and brass headlight rings ???
Actually Burger, in 1926/'27 you got black radiator shells on the plain open cars and the headlight rings were made of brass - but of course nickeled, since it was the nickle age
Paul, interesting, my car is a few weeks newer. I should have said the quadrant is steel, brass plated. Well, maybe I don't get brass hinge screws! More research!!
The clips are to anchor the top to the windshield when it is up. Need to keep those straps taut - hit a good bump and they pop loose.
Since someone else brought this detail up, I will add that the supposedly late '15/early '16 center-door sedan I had years ago had a steering column with the steel quadrant on the spark and throttle levers was originally brass plated. This was with the early horn button also. Most Ts early enough to have the brass plated quadrant still got the bulb horn.
The problem with the car from a research standpoint, was that it was the victim of a bad '50s restoration. It was basically impossible to tell which parts were original to the car, and which parts were not (other than the fact that half the running gear was mid '20s). There were several minor details indicating that the car was an early '16, enough for me to accept it and enjoy it, and I replaced most of the incorrect parts with proper '15/'16 parts. But that was not enough for me to ever tout the car as a genuine survivor. There was always a doubt about it. But that detail combination on the steering column was a rare one. And something one in the '50s would likely not bother to find since they hadn't cared about so many other parts being much later.
My guess would be that the brass plated quadrants were common through maybe June of '15? And they may have continued in some cars into early calendar '16. It would not surprise me to see photographic or empirical evidence of the brass plated quadrants as late as '16. Although that evidence may be hard to find, and I suspect that most Ts had black painted quadrants by the end of the '15 model year.
David D, If your December '15 has a brass plated quadrant? I would restore it that way!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Mike – thank you for posting the photo!
Paul – I think those clips you asked about are the ones to hold the side curtains see below:
David – and others interested in what was or was not offered in brass on the early 1916s, I would recommend the MTFCI Judging Guidelines (now in the 7th Edition – but for that mostly added Canadian information so 6th edition will still work well for most USA items). And of course different assembly plants could and did use up existing stock so there would have been overlap when new and old style parts were used. It contains lots of good information. But it also addresses what was typical so any particular car might or might not have some exceptions. Also Bruce’s book along with Gail Rodda’s “Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide.” Note if you purchase the Judging Guidelines, they contain a reprint of the “All the Same” series. From a spot check of looking for the steering column quadrant the “All the Same” covers many but not all of the items in Gail Rodda’s book. And of course for detailed information the Benson Ford Archives drawings and change cards. For an example of those details please see John Regan’s dash shield information at: http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/CA3638.PDF Talk about exceptions – one of the designs only lasted for two weeks before it was replaced with another design. Check out the Christmas 1916 dash shield comment (that would have been on the black radiator cars). So while not a typical dash shield, it could have been the correct dash shield for a very short period of time around the end of 1916.
Hap l9l5 cut off
Paul -- Those are side curtain hooks, as Hap explained. Your '16 would not have had them. I don't know when they first came about, guessing about 1917. The '15 w/s pictured is on my '21. Those hooks work well to hold the side curtains, so they are what I used. The parts on my car are "mostly" correct for a '21, but in the case of the windshield, I used what I had on hand. It works just fine.
(Message edited by coupelet on October 04, 2016)
Well, one detail I've noted from factory photos is the aluminum hogshead. Although the documentation indicates the cast iron one was in production before my car's build date, the photo of the 1,000,000 engine shows an aluminum hogshead. Well, since my car was assembled about 2 hours before that one, I figure my car also likely had an aluminum hogshead (The engine was apart when I got my car, so had to figure that one out). It takes time for a new part to make to the assembly line, sometimes dictated by the amount of previous parts on hand that Ford would use up first!
Of course I will continue to read documentation to verify stuff on my car--it's a long ways away from being on the road--gotta get Barney back on the road first! I love all the help y'all provide--Many Thanks!