Mag Post loose

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Mag Post loose
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 09:12 am:

My mag post is loose. The wire / nuts on top are tight but the whole unit isn't. Can I unscrew the 3 screws on top and tighten from inside? Are there any surprises under there? Is it likely I need a new mag post? Is there any regular maintenance that would have to be done?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 09:23 am:

The three screws are supposed to hold it tight to the hogshead. What happens when you tighten them?
If it's loose it will leak large amounts of oil as soon as the engine is running. New repro mag posts are available, also an accessory style that gives extra oil supply security to the front of the engine :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 10:33 am:

What kind of material is the body of the post made of? The later years had a cupped shaped metal ring that went over the base and the screws went thru that helped clamp the post to the hogs head. Maybe you are missing that piece.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 10:48 am:

You might can add a extra gasket or two under the mag post. Take out the mag post and put on some extra gaskets and it might cure the problem. Mag posts are fairly inexpensive to replace so if it comes to that after you remove it to check things out you may need to do that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Landry, Hudson, NH on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 05:35 pm:

Trying to remember - don't those three screws go into threaded holes in the hogshead? If you can't get them tight, might the threads be stripped?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 06:03 pm:

Do you mean the center contact is flopping around but the wire is tight? If so, the bottom nut under the wire needs tightening. Use two ignition wrenches. Hold top but with one, tighten one underneath with other. Then tighten top nut.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 06:12 pm:

I find it interesting that most of the time when someone needs help from the forum, they fail to mention the year of the car! This is important! There have been at least three major changes in the mag post design, so how can you expect us to help you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 06:58 pm:

Charlie's profile says he has a 1915 touring with a 1926 engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 07:14 pm:

Well, a 1926 engine shouldn't have the three screw fastening of the mag post - the whole contact screws into the hogshead in a 1/2" pipe thread on the '26/'27's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Friday, October 07, 2016 - 07:28 pm:

All it can be is center contact post is loose. Tighten as I said above. Charlie, you there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 12:10 am:

Could be a '26 engine with a '15 hogshead & pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 01:44 am:

Is he talking about the center contact core or the whole mag post?
"My mag post is loose. The wire / nuts on top are tight but the whole unit isn't."
I read it as the whole mag post is loose in it's mounting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 08:37 am:

You can always politely ask that question Larry. Charlie is a recent poster to the forum and may not be aware of your way of wanting things done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 07:25 pm:

Life got busy for 24 hours so just getting back to this. First things first, my uncle (Model T and just about anything else antique and piston engine driven fan), died unexpectedly in 2010 when his 1946 AT-6 Texan plane lost power on final approach to land. That's how I managed to inherit a whole fleet of antiques. I only say this because I don't know all the details about the car that some are asking for. It had been running well, but this year I haven't been able to get it started - hence the overall project and scope of work I'm doing. it's led to quite a bit of re-wiring and general tidying up of various things.

My uncle had on his paper list of assets 1915 Model T. I do know that the engine is not the original engine. Somewhere I heard or read that it has a 1926 engine. This seems to follow as I've read in this forum that 1926 was the first year for a starter equipped engine and my car definitely has a starter. i also have an older engine on a stand in the back of a storage unit. That engine number will be harder to find, but I'm fairly sure it's the original engine from the car.

The car's in a garage away from my house, but I now realize that I should go back and dig up engine numbers / production dates and whatever else I can find.

And, while I'm mechanically inclined, I'm not very knowledgeable about a lot of stuff discussed on this board. For instance - I have an idea what a magneto is meant to do, but don't understand how it works or what's underneath that post. I also should add that the car has been fitted with a Distributor and modern single coil for ignition.

I've attached a photo of the Mag Post that is installed in the car. The entire post is loose as if it's not connected to anything below. It wiggles about so I assume that it needs to be snugged up.

So here's where I made a big mistake this afternoon. I was examining the mag post today. Put a couple wrenches to it. I realize that I need a narrower wrench to manage both nuts against each other. I removed the 3 screws around the edge then took off the nuts, wire, washer. Left with a black plastic bushing. The brass base piece wouldn't budge at all. I managed to remove the black plastic bushing - wish I hadn't. The post immediately dropped right into the transmission. I knew that my next step was to get on the internet, study and ask questions.

What about that post in the bottom of the transmission? I read that maybe if I open the drain hole in the bottom I might be able to recover it? I've also read that it might be ok to just let it stay there - no real harm to the engine. Thoughts on how to deal with the post that fell off.

I'm obviously going to need to purchase a new mag post. I might as well get the kit with the external oiler (or not?). How do I remove the brass housing that seems well stuck to the hogshead? Is it just seized a bit and needs some gentle encouragement with a hammer or screwdriver? I've also read about issues from some of these replacement mag posts that the contact on the inside is the wrong length. I'd certainly want to do whatever I can to get the right part.

While I'm at it, the two large bolts on either side of the mag post in my attached photo - They aren't tightened down at all. I can spin the split washer easily. But it also appears that they don't actually attach to anything? I'm not touching them until I hear it's ok.

Thanks in advance for your help and I hope I wasn't too wordy.

Mag Post Before I attempted to remove it

A couple choices to purchase. My existing setup has the large brass base, but Larry mentioned that the engine should have the pipe thread version? My inclination is to choose the one that looks like what was already there.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 08:33 pm:

You have a distributor so all the mag post is doing is plugging the hole. It doesn't even need that wire hooked up as is does nothing at this point.
Not sure where you got 1926 as first year for the starter, it was 1919. Around 1926 or so the starter became regular equipment not an add on at extra cost item.
While getting a washer or nut out is one thing, the part you have dropped, is spring loaded and may be hung up in the magnets or coil plate. You may have to pull the hogs head for this one. Unless you want to add the outside oilier, you can retrieve the part and reuse. You have to get it out before you run the car anyway.
The two bolts, something home made not stock. Post a photo of the whole part, that might help know what it is and does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

The engine in the picture is not a 1926. The 1926 engine has a boss on the back above the mag post area and the hogs head has ears that bolt to the boss. Does your engine have a one or two piece valve cover(s)? You said that it has a starter does it have a generator ? If so a two piece valve cover would be 1919-1921 and a one piece would be 1921-1925.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 09:07 pm:

I would turn the engine over by hand a few times, then drain the oil and look in the bottom of the engine for that post. You might need to use a coat hanger or something to move it around so you can pull it out with a pliers. I was lucky - this worked for me when the post dropped in the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 09:20 pm:

Thanks all. Not only for providing hope that I can get part from oil drain, but for the help identifying the engine year. I'll post the engine # tomorrow along with answers to questions and a photos of the piece with the odd bolts.

I had a feeling that I didn't need the mag post because it does have a generator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 09:23 pm:

Charlie, what's that plate that's bolted to the Hogs-head do? Also, is it just my imagination, or is there anti-freeze visible in between the head and the block?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Saturday, October 08, 2016 - 09:34 pm:

John - not sure what that plate does. I didn't realize it was added at some point (home made). The car's not at my house so I'm going over tomorrow to investigate further. Curious. I'd love to remove anything that's "excessive and useless". Model T's have an elegant simplicity to them so extra is just that - extra.

Regarding the anti-freeze - probably. When I pulled the plugs last week, I saw a gel glob of antifreeze color green stuff in the combustion chamber. Not good. I posted on the forum and several recommendations to replace the head gasket. I bought a new head gasket, copper coat, new bolts, etc. Then someone recommended checking the head bolts that are there now. I took my torque wrench over looking to achieve 45 ft/lb's (It's a Z head and I've read that's the number). I have to say that most of the bolts were probably around 20 or so. Every one snugged up quite a bit. I got 45 on most of them, except for a couple in the back of the engine. The firewall and pie plate barrier prohibit me from getting any sort of tool in there. I need to do some disassembly for access.

I hope that this is the problem, but am prepared to replace the head gasket. I've never done a job like that, but it seems very doable. Also need to check for warped head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 10:25 am:

The brass housing that holds the mag post seems tightly attached to the hogshead. Looking at various photos and parts for sale, it appears to simply be sitting on top of a gasket on the hogshead held on by 3 screws.

I just want to confirm this with the pros out there. Hoping that getting it off just takes a light rapping with a mallet.

And since I've opened this can of worms, I've learned of the outside oiler replacement parts and am considering that too. Any advice is appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 11:45 am:

Take the 3 screws out and pop it off. Could be that the hardening type of Permatex was used and it's just glued/stuck on.
The contact is made with a pin inside a tube with the threaded end. There is a spring installed in the tube, the pin is inserted and the end rolled over to hold the pin. If the threaded part is still present thru the hole, put a washer on that is big enough to cover the hole where it bushing was removed and one of the nuts back on. The 3 screws have been removed so now just pop it off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 12:23 pm:

I wonder if the mag coil ring is in the car? Thinking about it, given the size of the hole in the part and length of the post itself, I would think the only way that the post could drop down is if it were not. Could be why it has a distributor.
You could find out by first removing the Bendix cover and then the Bendix, take off the starter. Can you see the coil ring? Or just magnets thru the hole were the starter mounts? Or maybe it has oil slingers instead of magnets? If one of the latter two is the case, you could put a rag in the hole and slowly rotate the engine and wipe the missing part up to the hole (after draining the oil). If the coil ring is still present, you can still do the rag trick, just a little more cramped. Be sure to get all the rag out before buttoning back up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 12:29 pm:

Getting ready to head over and drain the oil and hope a mag post that fell into the transmission falls out the bottom. Brass parts should make it past mags, but not so sure if there's a little spring floating around.

I wanted to check to see how many parts I can hope will come out to know I got it all. I did some google work for pics of the mag post. I found these. The first one is not like mine but shows the spring well. That spring looks well attached to the pin so that it's going to be one single piece held together. The second picture is what my mag post assembly looks like. But it doesn't show the spring. Obviously the spring has to be held in place somehow. Is there a chance that multiple parts are floating around in there. I'd like to get the car running before getting into bigger projects like pulling the hogshead, pulling oil pan, etc.

Not mine but spring well pictured
What mine looks like from the outside


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 12:59 pm:

The first one is nothing like yours in construction, in function yes they are the same. The 2ed one is what you have. The spring loaded pin is captivated inside the screw part. Even if you got the bushing out there would still be an insulating washer inside the housing that would keep the post centered. Once you get the housing off, look inside and tell us what you see. There should be a glob of solder on the coil ring that the end of the pin makes contact with just below the opening in the hogs head, if there is a coil ring present.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 05:49 pm:

Spent some time with my car. Draining oil right now. I've jacked up the front of the car (jack placed on each side of the front axle - not the center). The oil that came out is brown and sludgy. Not very pretty. I poured a quart or so of fresh oil in and cranked the engine around a few times - heard this can help clean up some sludge.

More importantly, no luck with the mag post. It's still in there somewhere. I also pulled the cover over the transmission bands. Plenty of fuzz on the magnet. Things there appear ok to the untrained eye. I do know that my low speed band is about done and needs to be replaced.

The piece referenced above with the large modern bolts that someone commented doesn't look original certainly is not. It's part of a larger piece that adds an additional layer of thickness beneath the transmission inspection panel. And then for some reason it has an extension forward along the engine and actually is part of the connection where the water / water pump is bolted onto the side of the engine.

This is making me wonder what car I actually have and how much a previous owner has modified. My engine number (10,573,451) and the lack of finding any sort of body number / identification. The body is wood, but the seat structures are metal. Some of the discussion I've read about body part numbers makes me wonder if this isn't a non-typical combination.

Below are photos of that large piece of metal I referenced that surrounds the mag post, includes the opening of the transmission access panel and is part of the water pump connection to the engine.







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:16 pm:

Well ain't that somethin'!
Is that gizmo an attempt to stop the sag of the hog's head? With METRIC bolts up on top.... At the least a pattern torch cut unit or at best a laser cut (or some such) part and formed to suit the top of the tranny cover with the ears welded on for the support rods.
I see a hog's head oiler too. Studs for the water inlet (for the tranny cover hold-up device) support rods...
Just to be a jerk (not really at all), who says the low speed band is about done for? Does it stick in low? Does it slip? Adjust it a little and try again.
OR
Who's been slippin' that band? If it's dragging things down there. OK. Otherwise adjust it and try again, if you haven't already.
Oh! Those rear head bolts that you couldn't torque? Guess with a regular wrench and try again. Shade tree bad in my blood. Get it done and get back to it.
Goll, that thing is clean inside with ? springs and O-rings to keep the clutch shaft from leaking? Nice. Most others just weep a bit.

Too bad about those mag post parts...
Duane


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:24 pm:

Duane - it's been a while since I've driven this car. But when I was driving it, the low speed pedal didn't engage well until the pedal was fully depressed. I adjusted the band - to the point where it was screwed in (together) all the way. No more room for tightening. It's possible that I've backed it out a bit but don't remember doing it.

I'll put it all together and take a drive before replacing bands. But then if I need to take off the Hogshead to get that pin out then I've heard it's easier to replace the bands so might just do it anyway.

Another forum member sent me this link on a separate thread. It's the Oil Pan Support Kit. This is exactly the one that's installed in my car.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/oil-pan-support-kit


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:26 pm:

You can buy this assembly from Snyders. Part number T-3105 Oil Pan Support. They have been around for a few years. Pays to read the catalogs now and then! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:33 pm:

Well son of a gun, never seen that support kit before yours.
Has the right hand (passengers) floor board riser (the angled boards) been replaced? IF they're original, it MAY have numbers stamped in or it may not.
Very interesting Charlie!


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