Getting a head off

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Getting a head off
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 09:14 am:

I am at wits' end.

I think the last guy that put the head on this one used modified bitumen extract as the head gasket seal or something.

No amount of beating has moved the head...

No place to get in a putty knife to even wiggle...

Engine is in car and would like to leave it that way...

Thinking of lifting the front end of the car thru a plug hole and let the dead weight work in my favor as it is beat on it more..

Any other favorite tricks...this one is really, really stuck!

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 09:29 am:

Once had a cyl. head stuck too. All head bolts up and out. Used lead filled mallet to hit from the side, like normally done, but no budge.

So removed the water outlet and stuck a large dowel down the throat, big one like a broom stick.

Lifted up on the dowel and the head popped up at the front. Lifting from the front is less contact area than trying to move it side to side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 09:43 am:

Make sure you have all the bolts out.

Rotate the engine until both valves are closed on #2 or #3 (either one, it doesn't matter). With the piston about halfway up and both valves closed fill that cylinder with diesel. Put the spark plug in. Rotate the engine and the head will be forced off by hydraulic pressure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnCodman on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 09:44 am:

If the engine will run, put the plugs back in and start it up with a few headbolts in place but backed off a couple of turns. The head will blow off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, October 09, 2016 - 09:47 am:

I threaded an eye bolt style lifting piece in #1 and 4 plug holes then ran a chain between them. I put a pipe through the chain and set up a saw horse on one side of the car with one end of the pipe resting on it and from the other side of the car I picked up the other end of the pipe using it as a lever.The head came up with minimal effort.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 07:29 am:

Thanks for the ideas. All efforts Sunday were futile (groan). 2x4 with a dead hammer, nothing nada...use the water hole, nothing JB weld can't fix...drag it around the neighborhood popping the clutch with fasteners loose, nada again.

I forgot to mention and this may be important now that all other efforts have failed. Someone studded this block a long time ago. Further, Ford didn't solve a chronic weeping head bolt problem until maybe car one million if you look at the re ord of changes and stop to think why each change may have been required. (My view only and this is a much later block anyway). I am thinking that maybe the studs have rusted against the head?

Didn't have jam nuts y' day but will for the next time. Told the guy to keep adding penetrating oil and rap it with the dead hammer and do that at least every other day. Next time I have time I'll come with jam nuts and we will see if the studs turn, and if they do we'll try the diesel "Jack"

Thanks for all the ideas gang...this head will eventually come off :-).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 07:40 am:

Someone should remember the tool used to go down over the studs on early aluminium V8's. It would cut the rust and a little of the head holes. This was the only way to remove those heads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 07:45 am:

This is from Ford Barn http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34249


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:05 am:

Oh yeah, it would have been nice to know you're dealing with studs instead of bolts. Just about black & white actually. First off you need to soak every stud with a rust busting solution of some kind. Attempting to unscrew the studs is another option. Don't bother trying to get it off without doing what I suggest because it won't work. It's frozen to the studs not the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:56 am:

" It's frozen to the studs not the block."

And that is why I have always been warey of studs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 10:10 am:

I remember my Grandfather telling a story about removing aluminum heads from a studded flathead V-8 Ford. Not stock heads but I think the studs were). Total nightmare. I believe the aluminum is worse as far as corrosion/dissimilar metals are concerned. Took them off in pieces if you can believe it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 11:29 am:

It's hard enough pulling a Model A cast iron head sometimes. :-( If there is enough stud sticking out could you grab with a stud puller or vice-grips and remove the studs? Just turning the stud a little should break the bond between them and the head. If you do it that way, do not strong hand it and break the stud(s) off. You could also heat the stud and melt wax down it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 12:28 pm:

Mark's suggestion about melting wax has worked for me. Get the stud really hot but not cherry red as close to the head as you can and then melt candle wax on it so the wax seeps down the stud. I have done that to remove studs but also do it with heads that are rusted to the studs but only after soaking them with 50/50 ATF and acetone for a couple of days. It is better to be patient than have to replace broken studs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 12:46 pm:

50%ATF & 50% acetone let it dribble down the stud holes. If you have an air chisel, put a blunt end tool in it and use it to vibrate the studs (put a heavy hammer on the opposite side of the stud--if you're worried about ruining the threads, put a nut on it first. Vibrate the Heck out of them. I'm certain if you try to remove the studs, they will break off, giving you even more grief.
Hope you didn't hurt much with the water neck idea--I didn't like that one when I first read it.
You can also vibrate the head with the air chisel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 01:20 pm:

You will have to use a stud puller. Get all the ones out that will come out. Then you may have to use a combination of tactics to get the remaining studs loose. A torch will help too, in between sessions of soaking with oil of your choice. You may end up drilling a stud or two. Go back together with bolts.......if you are able to get it apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 02:10 pm:

On Model A's and farm tractors, and the failure of a cheap stud puller to take hold, I have welded the nuts to the studs. The heat also helped. I dislike studs on older engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 02:32 pm:

With studs you can use all of the threads in the engine - the std bolts only goes a few threads in, especially with hardened washers for an aluminum head. Thus it's important to always use fresh anti freeze in the engine to avoid rusting and seizing fasteners. When it's already oxidized / rusted stuck, then it's hard to fix - but certainly doable in one or another way..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 02:44 pm:

I like to coat the studs with anti-sieze as an insurance policy before installing the head. However, I've not had to pull a head that I've done this to, so can't swear by it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

No one has suggested heat? Or did I miss it... ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

Just what are you going to heat? The whole engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Saggese on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 01:42 pm:

I heat around the "joint" between the bolt and surrounding material with a propane torch, then drop a few drops of the 50/50 ATF and acetone mix in. I find that the heat helps to draw the mixture deeper into the gaps than just letting it cold soak with penetrating oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 01:44 pm:

I thought the issue was studs. Why wouldn't you heat the studs and let them cool? Metal shrinks when it cools- breaking the rust bond. I'm pretty sure I wrote an article on this awhile back...

http://tfoye.com/headstud.html

Same principle, might work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 02:00 pm:

This is routinely an issue with Model A heads. Two of the lifting eyes with a length of chain and an engine hoist is the method I prefer on As - has yet to fail me. Another technique is to soak studs in Kroil or PB Blaster, wait a day, coil a soft rope down into one of the cylinders through a spark plug hole and hand crank. Head should lift up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 03:07 pm:

Ron,
ROPE!!! What a great idea! I never thought of that, thanks for the tip--now to remember it when I need it! Do you put in the two center cylinder to give a straighter push?
OH, and I suppose you leave some of the rope hanging out of the spark plug hole just in case the idea doesn't work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 03:12 pm:

David - I always went on the center two, for exactly that reason. Yes on leaving some hanging out the spark plug hole.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 04:01 pm:

I hope that I don't ever need to remove the head on my car. I do have 2 new head gaskets stashed, just in case. I would just as soon not ever see the inside of my oil pan either. However ,I will do whatever it takes to keep it on the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 - 04:05 pm:

Tim,

I see what you're suggesting now. Just didn't think you could heat the studs very well as so little of them stick out. Worth a try!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim on Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 01:36 pm:

Restored the original web page, photos are better.

http://tfoye.com/MTE/brokenheadstud.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 05:03 pm:

The rope idea is a great one and I know personally of it being used. A couple of things to keep in mind: 1 & 4 or 2 & 3 (companion cylinders) whichever you chose make sure the pistons and darn near full up. You don't want them going over tdc. Pack the rope in as tightly as possible and whatever you do leave a LONG length sticking out of the plug hole. Makes retreveing it easier if necessary. The idea is to put the car in high gear and rock it bumping the head. It might bounce a bit but that only shows the rope is hitting the head. Soak the studs A LOT and let it soak quite a while. Good Luck!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 06:26 pm:

Do as Royce originally suggested except fill the cylinder with grease. Make an adapter with a grease fitting on a 1/2 pipe plug. Now apply your grease gun. You should be able build up enough pressure to break it loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 07:01 pm:

Roger's comment that studs will screw further down the holes and give more thread engagement is worth following. Whenever I fit an aluminium head with the mandatory stainless steel washers, I discard the standard head bolts and use replacements from a 6 cylinder Holden [GM] motor. These are longer bolts which go right to the bottom of the holes. It allows me to clean out the holes to maximum depth, and the added length means maximum thread engagement and less chance of stripping out the block.

George, when you get the head off, it would be an ideal opportunity to install threadserts and revert to using standard headbolts rather than studs.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, December 21, 2016 - 01:35 pm:

Follow up...

I was a tad gunshy about using the rope. I understand the concept, usually have a no fear, but on this one as stuck as it was could only see the head coming off in pieces.

So, soak with penetrating oil and pry thru the water outlet, soak with more penetrating oil and pry some more, repeat, repeat, and when someone else around put the pry bar on my shoulder and lift while someone else raps the c#^p out of the head with a dead blow mallet.

Finally...just when another futile effort was tried, it went POP and lifted! No goo stuck to block or head it was corrosion from the blasted studs, like 9 of them against the head!

So thanks for all the help, we got 'er done! I better never see another with studs. Lol. So now for some creative JB Weld infill on the water outlet. :-):-).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, December 21, 2016 - 01:37 pm:

Always great to hear follow-up. Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, December 21, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

Sorry. Said penetrating oil. Was penetrating oil and ATF...but it got the head off!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, December 21, 2016 - 03:11 pm:

If you got any ATF down in the cylinders or valves, wait for your first start up. You will fog the entire neighborhood.

We soaked valve stems that were stuck with ATF and our first start up after that almost resulted in the EPA listing my driveway as a Superfund site.

Seriousely, don't start it indoors the first time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 05:55 am:

thanks for that quick tip....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 07:56 am:

George,

Don't ever buy a Model A.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 03:27 pm:

Hal,

Very well noted....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 04:50 pm:

I have never done this with a T engine that I can remember but it works really well with Willys flatheads. Take the nuts off. Take the spark plugs out. Get an old spark plug, knock the porcelain out of it, stick a bolt with fine threads up through the plug from the bottom. ( I actually weld them) Set a heavy steel plate on top of the studs with a hole for the bolt to pass through. Put a washer and a good nut on the bolt and turn the nut with your impact wrench. If you make two like this and tighten the nuts alternately the head will pull right off. The advantage of this is you don't end up ruining anything and if you strip the threads you just remove the plug, put another bolt in and go again. With the plate setting nearly an inch off the top of the head there is plenty of room to get in there with a torch and heat the studs if you want to.

Works for me, however, this is free advice, probably was not used in Model T days, may be wrong or ill advised, your mileage may vary, statements day of auction take precedence over all other advertisements, no warranty is expressed or implied, all models are over 18, wear safety protection, no refunds without receipt. Etc:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 09:20 pm:

The Model A head puller works about the same way. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Friday, December 23, 2016 - 12:30 am:

Hi George,
I am ever so relieved that you got the head off. Your ordeal is the undesired scenario which I dread with any stud and nut head.

I have to fess up that a car with such an engine has crept into my shop and while I have no need to remove it's head anytime soon, I will offer a

Thank You

to Stan Howe for the clever suggestion of how to remove a head retained in that manner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, December 23, 2016 - 01:03 am:

Thanks, Bill. Work great with those little Willys Go Devil engines. I've also done it on some old flathead tractor engines. On most engines there are some places you can thread a bolt in like the water outlets, etc. and pull there, too.


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