Mag Post / External Oiler

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Mag Post / External Oiler
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 06:32 pm:

Per my engine s/n, I have an engine built in Early October, 1924. There's a structural support structure bolted to the engine block and acting like a cantilever for the transmission. I'm not sure if this means that the transmission matches or doesn't match the engine production.

I posted a few days ago, but that thread got very long. Short version - I screwed up and allowed the mag post to drop into the transmission / mag area beneath. I've done some research and read about external oilers. I thought about getting one when I replace the mag post, but then today noticed that there's one already installed. One of the types mounted to a new hold on side of hogshead.

This is the preface to my question about that lost mag post. I drained the oil and have tried to stick my finger in the oil drain with hope that the mag post was there. No luck and I was barely able to get a finger in there. I did feel what seemed like metal fins / baffles immediately inside the pan at the drain hole. They seemed firmly attached. Is there something in there that would match this description? I am wondering about some of what I've read about the external oiler. When there's a distributor and generator installed (as is in my car), the mag is sometimes replaced by a paddle structure that helps funnel oil to that external oiler. Could that be related to what I'm feeling inside the oil drain?

I did stick a stiff wire into pan through drain hole in hopes of feeling the mag post. I didn't get any sense that it was there.

How bad an idea is it to leave that mag post in there assuming it will most likely just stay way down in the deepest part of pan?

If I need to find it, will taking the hogshead off provide me the access I'm hoping for?

What about taking the inspection panel off bottom of oil pan? Is that a potential access point to find this bugger?

If the answer all leads to dropping the pan, can that be done with the engine still in the car? If the pan comes out, how likely is it that I need to have it sent out for "reshaping"? I read lots on this forum about that process.

Last - my finger barely fits in the oil drain hole. From the pictures below can anyone say if I'm working with the original oil drain plug / hole, or has this one been modified with an insert - thus narrowing the original hole?

Just hoping for some advice / steps to take before I make an additional mistake that I will regret.

The Oil Drain Hole


The external oiler


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 07:57 pm:

I'm a bit of a newbie, but have had and read hints that strongly suggest ... well ... 'state' ... that if something falls into the transmission, it's a significant no-no. There isn't much room in there, and whatever falls in will get whipped and thrashed around, either getting jammed somewhere, or bang around on the magneto, causing more damage .. possibly knocking more bits loose. If you can't fish it out ... it's drop the pan time.

From what I've read .... dropping the pan pretty much means removing the engine and transmission, as the bottom of the transmission ... and engine .. are all one piece (save the dipping area up front that attaches to the pan).

They strongly suggest stuffing the transmission with rags and tying strings on anything small enough to fit through the transmission inspection hole. (You've probably seen that post in your previous entry).

As there appears to be a gasket under a nut, and epoxy around all that, it appears your drain hole has been repaired, sometime in the past.

Just my 2 cents. Your mileage may vary...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 08:16 pm:

Your drain plug looks normal. Inside is a tin insert with just a slot opening, You can not put your finger in any of these drain openings. Just remove the small inspection cover from the bottom of the oil pan. If the mag coils have been removed, you may have room to insert a flexible magnet or some other means of checking to find the lost part. You already have a good outside oiler. This is what the brass fitting is fastened to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 08:55 pm:

The post is brass. It has to come out. That drain plug hole does look to be repaired as Dennis H said. Like I said before look in the hole the post assembly came out of, you should be able to see the contact on the mag coil ring. If you can not see it chances are the coil ring is not installed. If not installed read my other post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:11 pm:

Thanks Mark. I've read back to your other comments and I think it means I have some hope here. I'm going to do whatever it takes to have a good look inside the hole where the post dropped through. I have a strong suspicion that there is no mag coil there. This will mean I can take a shot at opening up the Bendix cover.

By the way, I've included a large spool of dental floss and pile of rags to my work kit. The dark hole of gears and transmission is so well respected throughout this forum...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:21 pm:

If your mag coil has been removed and replaced with slingers, it's possible to drop the inspection pan and get a small hand down into the sump. I was able to do this when I had the inspection pan off to replace the #4 rod and cap. It was a tight squeeze, but I was able to get my hand all the way down to the drain hole. If you have large hands, ask someone with small hands to help. Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:26 pm:

Thanks Dave. If the mag coil is gone, I can do that. My hands are on the small side I think. And if those don't work, my daughter has small hands with long fingers. And, she already offered to reach in if it would help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 10, 2016 - 09:28 pm:

Dave I think he would have a very good chance doing it that way if the coil ring is removed and would be easier then removing the starter, a little more messy but easier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 04:40 pm:

I got hold of a cheap but effective scope to investigate. Generally good news I think. I've attached picture with the best description that I can give. When the scope is down the hole and moving around I got an idea of what I was looking at. Out of context, maybe not so much.

So the camera fit easily through the hole of the missing mag post. What's very clear is that there was nothing in the way for a distance going in (as in no solder / mag coil. What I saw beneath with the camera was more like a long, cupped metal device. Picture a long thin trowel sort of like what you see masons use to smooth grout between bricks. I'm pretty sure this is one of those oil throwers that I've read about that can go along when the external oiler is added. And my car has that heavy duty version that is mounted through the side of the hogshead.

No luck finding the mag post in there. Maneuverability of the camera is sort of hit or miss. Either way, not seeing it obviously means retrieving it that way is unlikely too.

I've rotated the engine a few times wondering if I would hear the metallic noise of the mag post moving around - nothing.

I also tried putting the scope into the oil drain. That's a tough angle since I'm hoping to see something that's likely just inside the drain. I'll try harder later in hopes I can push the camera in and get it to bend back 180 to look down. I really hope it's there.

Assuming I'm right about the oil slinger being there rather than the mag coil, is there much of anything else to block the mag post from dropping all the way to the oil drain? If that's the case, then I think that the inspection plate beneath the oil pan along with my daughter's small hands might give me the best chance. My biggest concern there is proper replacement / sealing of that cover.

#2 would be removal of the hogshead. Something I really don't want to do, but am willing if there's sufficient hope that I could recover the mag post from the top once opened up.

Here are the photos. The camera is pretty neat. $100 Ryobi at Home Depot. Not the world's best, but certainly handy. I had to take a photo of the screen with my phone camera. There are other types that allow you to save a photo and download it - Rigid CA25 I believe, but HD didn't have that one.

This is about the mid-section of what I think is an oil scoop / slinger. The metal piece runs side to side relative to this photo.


This is the cupped end of the oil slinger. Hard to see but there seems to be a hole (intentional) in the cup. In this photo, the slinger runs up and down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 05:15 pm:

Go with dropping the inspection plate under the crankcase. With no mag plate in place you should have no problem getting your hands in there. :-) And no "icky oil daddy!" :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 06:03 pm:

Charlie, stick your scope through the mag post opening. Your post may have fallen into the oil scoop that runs to the timing gears.



It's really odd to me you didn't see it in the oil pan already. This is the only other place I can think of it could be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 - 07:56 pm:

Seth,
I haven't opened the oil pan inspection cover yet. My scope photos are through the mag post hole and show the Metal scoop that you show in your photo. Your photo is very helpful navigation for me. I thought that scoop was one of several that spun around thus scooping and throwing the oil around. Looks like it's static and just one. Those must be the oil paddles that are just to the right of that scoop?

It's hard to navigate the scope down between the scoop and the paddles on your photo. The scope neck is exactly as flexible as you would think it is. To change the shape once in the hole, I have to try to push/pull it against structures and hope it works. Ultimately, I doubt I'll get a good look all the way to the bottom.

However, if it is down there I need to get in underneath to recover it. I would think that oil pan inspection plate is an easier remove/replace than the hogshead. And hopefully better odds.

But this is where I'm looking for some professional guidance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:00 pm:

Charlie there is most likely a "basement" involved in the oil drain. A grate or platform with a slit in it inside, then a void, then the bolt you unscrew outside. IF you dropped something, that may be where it went. What confuses me is what you think you dropped. You have no Mag in that engine. So what did you drop? The mag post spring that conducts electricity from the field coil? Dig up a parts list and tell us what you are looking for, the mag post itself can't fit through the hole it mounts on - so what's lost?

If that is one of my engines, there would be no bits on that mag post, just a way to plug the hole.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

Tim
The wire was attached to the post because it would have hung loose if it wasn't attached. The mag post was just blocking the hole. I suggest maybe going back and reading ALL the postings to understand how he got to this point and what is going on.
What part(s)that are in play: lost threaded part that the wire attaches for modern style post and which parts are not in play: no coil ring.

Charles;
What more professional guidance do you need? Drop the oil pan inspection plate, find the missing piece, button back up. There is my professional guidance. :-)
When you reinstall the post assembly plug the hole for the threaded part or make a block off plate then tape off the wire that was mounted to it and tuck it out of the way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 07:39 pm:

Seth - thanks to your photo, I was able to do a better job understanding what I was seeing in my camera scope. I worked my way down past the oil scoop, kept going and clearly got to the very bottom of the pan. At one point I saw the oil drain which was unscrewed and open. The problem is that the probe head is stiff and the gooseneck is reasonably stiff too. Thus, it was difficult without obvious landmarks to know exactly where I was.

At one point in the bottom of the pan, I saw the mag post. Threads and all. I attempted to push up against it figuring maybe it would end up near the oil drain. But oil clouded the camera and I ended up pulling it out. I never managed to get to that spot again.

Still hopeful that the oil pan inspection plate will give me access to the spot where I saw the post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Friday, October 21, 2016 - 11:26 pm:

Got it! I removed the oil pan inspection plate. Even beheading 4 new bolts to act as guides and hold the metal bars inside in place. That recommendation was gold.

It was easy to get the scope down to the bottom of the sump or whatever the deepest part of the transmission is called. The mag post was sitting right there, very close to the oil drain. I tried getting my hand in there and came up a couple inches short.

Mark - my daughter came to the rescue. Her small hands were able to get in there and grab it. So my mistake is fixed, and the mag post is back where it belongs in it's decorative location atop the place where the mag should be. Wire attached and everything.

This was quite an exercise, but I learned a ton about my T and will be a better owner going forward.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Friday, October 21, 2016 - 11:45 pm:

Have to give credit where credit is due:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 12:45 am:

Great! :-) And she looks to be a very good sport about the whole job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 01:02 am:

Hi Charlie,

I am pleased and even more relieved that the "lost sheep" has been found. And kudos to your daughter for being willing to help out "poor old Dad".

If you ever implore her to assist you again, PLEASE have her wrap her hair in a kerchief or some such. The first time that she rolls over her hair with the creeper wheel WILL BE THE LAST TIME. No, I never had hair of that length, but long long ago a girlfriend learned the hard way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 01:38 am:

You're a good egg, young miss Dill!
Glad you got it outta there Charlie!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 01:57 am:

I showed the picture to my wife and we both think your daughter is very pretty, and a good sport. Does she drive the T? I'm teaching my 16 year old granddaughter to(o)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 07:33 am:

Bill, I was thinking the same thing, LOL. It looks dangerously close to the creeper wheel in the one shot. I DO have hair that long and ONCE got it caught in a creeper wheel. Luckily it was in the shop I work at and one of the techs came to my rescue and got me out with hardly no damage. I could not move, I was literally pinned to the floor on this creeper. My hair gets tied up now and sometimes tucked down my shirt. Maybe someday I'll grow up, LOL.

I now use cardboard to slide around on at the shop and at home, as well as carpet scraps and old carpet samples. I have not owned a creeper since I was 17 (almost 30 years ago) because I can't get vehicles high enough at home to use them comfortably, and I tend to roll away when wrenching.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 10:02 am:

Glad to hear the happy ending! You dodged a bullet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 10:12 am:

Thanks for the compliments all. Louise was a great sport about it. When I first mentioned that I could use her help on this, she jumped at the opportunity. I really loved the enthusiasm and engagement.

I saw the hair as I was taking the picture. She managed to get it packed in behind her head, and out of the way of the wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 10:54 am:

That's what happened to the ponytail I used to "sport" in my youth - yep, got stuck under the creeper and there I was ! Yanked out a bunch of hair then headed to the barber shop - got it whacked !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 11:05 am:

LOL all you long-haired hippies. My dad is a Marine. I don't think I've ever had hair more than an inch long in my whole life. If I get extremely lazy and don't get a haircut for long enough, it'll start to touch my ears and drive me insane and then I just have to cut it.

Charlie, I'm glad you got it out without having to remove hogs head!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 12:26 pm:

Great job Louise..... You saved day a lot of work.

I have wondered at times about getting a Harbor Fright camera. It was worth it in your case.....worth more than what you paid for it compared to the labor/work it saved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 12:53 pm:

The pictures Charlie posted remind me of an old business partner named Tom.
Tom had long hair down to or past his shoulders.
We spent too much time running to get his hair out of the creeper wheels so he could get up.
I think it is time I tip toe over to Harbor fright
and get one of those cameras.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Saturday, October 22, 2016 - 05:06 pm:

The camera came in extremely handy. And it's a tool I know I can use more in the future. I got mine at Home Depot Ryobi brand. It's good, but ratings for Ryobi are spotty at best. I had been looking for the Rigid CA25 (I think). Very good ratings. But mainly I was intent on staying under about $140. Ryobi was $99.

One thing to check if you can is the diameter of the camera. The Ryobi is quite thin and easy to get into small places. Some reviews for some other scopes complain about camera size.


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