Re-attaching oil pan inspection plate

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Re-attaching oil pan inspection plate
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

I need to reattach the plate. I read a thread from 2010 that recommended using similar bolts with heads cut off to help align everything.

I haven't taken the cover off yet, but plan to later tonight or tomorrow. I presume I'll then find out what they meant by "rails" that can be troublesome. I bought 4 bolts with same thread as cover and plan to cut off the heads. I'll put the 4 in before actually unscrewing all 13 of the bolts. Is that overkill or a good idea?

Most importantly since I know that this has to be a major spot for oil leaks, What is the recommended gasket sealer and method for applying? The pan is on the car so oil will be present.

Last - do the pan bolts (13) or nut (1) get torqued?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 08:04 pm:

I have 4 6" long pieces of 5/16 all thread that I use to put the inspection plate back on if I'm under the car. Screw two into each horseshoe or rail and then you can slide the gasket and plate over those, put in a few bolts and then unscrew the all thread and replace with the last bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 08:45 pm:

Studs made from bolts or all thread are a very handy way of installing the inspection cover, transmission cover, and head gasket & head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTU8LMnAmSI


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JD, Wichita, KS on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 08:49 pm:

Mechanics helpers are handy when you work by your self.
More helpful for installation than dis-assembly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 08:50 pm:

Charlie it's not hard or bad. I've never used any kind of guide - just looked and made sure horseshoes were lined up before I started and then eased inspection plate up. I guess you could be a little ham-fisted and move the brackets when trying to put the bolts in, but I've never had any trouble with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 10:21 pm:

I just installed my pan cover for the first time the other day and I didn't find any need for any kind of alignment help. I just had two bolts ready to go as I held the cover up. Gasket-wise I laid my pan cover on the bench and ran a head of black Permatex on, then a brand new gasket, then another layer of black Permatex. I got under the car, wiped a very thin layer of grease where the gasket would go (to ease removal later) then installed the pan cover to just beyond finger tight. An hour or so later (per directions) I snugged all of the bolts down, working from the middle out.

I can see how a couple pins would definitely help get the transmission cover on, especially when you have two gaskets and a screen at all get lined up without making a gooey mess of sealant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 10:51 pm:

Just do it, start at the middle and work your way outward. I would use a gasket sealer on one side only and attach it to the cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 10:57 pm:

JD,
My father had these in his tool box, like yours but the next step. Spring on the side, so you just push the pan or on a model T the plate up in place and it is held while you start the bolts.

a


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Thursday, October 13, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

I shopped for Permatex today. Sort of expected less variety. Any details beyond "black".

AT first glance it seems that one is quicker drying than the other. And some gasket sealers dry hard, others "don't dry". Bottom line, I can't figure out what the right version is for this and other gasketing jobs.

Last - bolts - when I took off the pan there were washers that I think were the bonded sealing type. There was a black, rubbery ring / thread that I was able to pull off most of the bolts before removing. There are a few different sealing options out there.

Bonded Stainless with some sort of rubbery center.
Langs sells Nylon Oil Pan Sealing Washers (I would think nylon would be too hard to actually seal)
A coat of _________ thread sealer of some sort
Some sort of thread wrapped around the threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 12:14 am:

Charlie, this is my choice..It seals the best, and gives you some time to actually get everything you want in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 12:23 am:

Charlie - get some Permatex Ultra Black. $7.95 at your local auto parts place. It's formulated to withstand oil specifically and will do exactly what you want without drying too fast.

Lay down a bead of it in between each bolt hole of the inspection pan and just arc around the inside (towards the interior of the pan) of each hole. Then come back and make a semicircle around the other side of the hole to close it in. Get right up beside every hole all the way around.

When you squish the pan up some of the goo will be in the hole as you're threading the bolts up into the brackets and each bolt will be sealed. No fancy o-rings or washers needed. You don't even have to try to coat the threads, it'll just happens naturally.

You can follow the directions on the Ultra Black exactly or you can do what I and 95% of the rest of us do: run the bolts up snug (snug is a technical term for tighter than finger-tight but less than TIGHT), wipe off any excess, and let it dry at least 12 hours. No need to re-snug later. If you do this in the evening it'll be ready to drive in the morning.

(Edited for spelling)

(Message edited by Wreckrod9 on October 14, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 12:26 am:

Lol John and I agree.

Also, quick note - if you're gonna use Ultra Black, there's no need for a gasket. Just clean naked metal on both surfaces. It won't hurt anything I you want to put a gasket, just more work for no difference in performance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 12:37 am:

Seth, how goes your speedster project,..any new updates?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 12:39 am:

Great - Thanks. Probably happening tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 11:54 am:

I just put one bolt in part way on each side. That is 4 bolts total. usually easily line up the horseshoe. If it doesn't line up just take a small Phillips screw driver and slip it around until the hole lines up. Then start putting the other bolts in. I usually coat each bolt with Ultra Black before installing and then take out the 4 first bolts and also coat with ultra black. You will need string, a thin gasket or just ultra black, but something to seal the bolts because if not, oil will leak out around them.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 01:55 pm:

Charlie- a common cause for the oil pan under the car to leak is long years of removing and reinstalling while tightening the bolts over and over.
The bolt holes in the oil pan begin to start getting slightly concave which in turn wont retain a flat surface for the pan to flush up with against the engine pan.
When you remove the oil pan cover clean it up and lay the pan on a flat surface and flatten and even out all the pan holes.
No need to use any other bolts than Ford used from the factory. Flatten out the bolt holes, add some sealer on either side of the gasket and reinstall the pan. Works for me and no leaks.
It surprising that no one else mentioned this. Its a pretty common cause for leaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 02:01 pm:

I agree on Ultra Black. Some folks brag on The Right Stuff, but it's the wrong stuff for me. Sets up too fast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Zachary Dillinger - Charlotte, MI on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 02:29 pm:

I used Ultrablack on the gasket for my inspection pan and wrapped small-diameter twine around the bolts to act as a gasket / seal. Not a single drip of oil from that area since finishing the engine six months ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera in the U.P. of MI. on Friday, October 14, 2016 - 07:10 pm:

One of the results of using RTV can be the excess bead "squeezed" out from between the mating surfaces. No problem on the outside of the motor, but inside it can break loose and it can eventually end up in the oil funnel and clog it. When I use it, I try never to use too much...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Friday, October 21, 2016 - 11:41 pm:

Inspection plate off. My bolts with heads cut off were a great addition. Cleaned up everything and removed all the old gasket sealing goop. I'm pretty sure it was originally clear silicone (RTV)?

Tomorrow I'll attack replacing the cover. I've reviewed all the recommendations above and am fairly confident I can get a leak proof cover. Sorting out the right amount of ultra black will be the key. I can see where too much squeezing out inside the engine could become a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Sunday, October 23, 2016 - 08:47 am:

I used Permatex Ultra Black to seal the gasket to the lower inspection cover and Permatex non hardening number 2 between the gasket and the pan. Seals well and makes it easy to disassemble and reassemble when necessary. I used the nylon washers from Langs. No leaking there but the car is still being assembled so the engine has only run for a while, no driving yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson, Salty Bottom, AL on Sunday, October 23, 2016 - 11:09 am:

A note about Seth's pan and the lack of a gasket. We spent several hours on Stanley's pan jig hammering and straightening the pan. When finished, the pan fit the block perfectly- flat against flat and perfectly aligned.

On a pan that has not been restored and straightened, plan on installing a gasket and using a full tube of caulk (exaggeration) because the pan will be "puckered" at every hole. The gasket and caulk may fill the voids.

These "puckers" will hold the "flats" away from the block and create leaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 10:22 am:

Those "puckers" can and should be flattened out before re-installing the pan. The pan is pretty tough material, I've had good success using a couple of 3/8" drive sockets and a piece of all thread rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 10:57 am:

Norman briefly mentioned the secret: "You'll need string". Let me amplify by saying I use the very fine cotton string used on feed sacks. Wind it several times around bolt opposite the direction of tightening. This will preclude hot oil leaking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 11:02 am:

Hard to say when I've seen more minute detail and intricate instruction to do something so simple and basic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 11:11 am:

Always good to hear a response that brings us all back to the KISS strategy. Thanks Jerry. Of course, seeing that drop of oil on the floor beneath the car and wishing it wasn't there is a common frustration of mine.

But I'm headed over to the car sometime today. Slap the plate on just temporarily with the intent to put a few quarts of oil along with some crankcase cleaner in, hopefully start it up, let it run a few minutes an then drain what I hope is the nasty, dirty scum that's surely hiding out in my engine. Then do the proper, "dare I say leak free", reattachment of the inspection plate with hopes that this will be the last time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 11:20 am:

If it hasn't already been posted, why buy bolts that you have to cut the heads off of, when your local auto parts store can sell you something like carburetor mounting studs (something an inch or inch and a half long) that you don't have to modify? Just buy the correct thread bolt. Dan M., also recommended all thread. That works, too, but you still have to cut to length.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 11:27 am:

When you have a drawer full of bolts, cutting the heads off is faster and costs less than driving to town. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 11:54 am:

You don't need anything except the bolts! The first two will be somewhat difficult, because the horseshoes will want to lift, but it's still a piece of cake. Yes on the Ultra Black. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is get some 5/16 Dorman copper brake line washers for each bolt. That will almost cure any oil drips in the future. Also, you don't need to torque the bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 03:10 pm:

Admittedly, this may be more than what you want or need to do, but when I had my engine out and pan off and clean, I aligned the horseshoe brackets with a few bolts and tacked down the brackets in place with several dabs of gasket sealant around the perimeter. That done, now they stay in place when I remove the inspection plate. No need for studs, no worries about having to carefully align the brackets when replacing the plate. Again, easy to do with everything apart and clean, and maybe more than you want to tackle, but I think it could be done even with the engine in the car, with the help of the studs you already have. You'd just have to make sure the brackets and inside rim of the pan are clean so the sealant would stick and hold the brackets in place properly.

Just my two cents; take it or leave it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, October 24, 2016 - 06:55 pm:

I recently had the pan off an engine to put it on a jig to make sure it was straight. I finished that and installed the pan. I then used the mentioned long bolt trick to line up the inspection cover with the horse shoe backer. I felt pretty good about doing that and bragged to my son about that trick. His response was, "when you had the pan off, why didn't you put the inspection cover on?". I couldn't think of an answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dick C


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 10:20 am:

No question I can get the plate as clean as Dave's, but as the engine is installed, I'll just do my best. The outside mating surfaces will be clean and I'm going to do what I can to make sure the mounting holes are in shape for the best chance at a leak free installation.

When I had it all apart, the horse shoe backers were easy to remove from the car. Allowed me to wipe down and clear out some sludge from the pan. Returned horseshoes in great shape and using my cut off bolts know that it will be easy to keep them in place for the plate installation.

Quick question - on my car, the center forward location on the inspection plate has a threaded stud welded on. Is it standard?

If it's not standard, it should be. Even better if about 4 more of them were done that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, October 30, 2016 - 01:51 pm:

That is not standard Charlie, and I have never seen it but I have thought about doing it.

No one has mentioned anything about grinding grooves in the front horse shoe so oil can get into number one dip.
Look at Dave Barker's picture above and see how oil can come out the tube into the timing gear area and run down the front of the pan and hit the front horse shoe and go to each side and run along the outside of the irons until it can run between them into number two dip.
That has caused many freshly rebuilt engines to seize up number one rod as the car sat with the engine at idle.
I always take the front shoe out and grind away some metal between the front bolt holes. On the bottom side.
I do it on both sides for in case the next guy gets the iron u shaped piece in up side down.
Another reason to use thin oil as Ford recommended.
Roofing tar will not get through the small spaces under the irons to get into number one dip.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Monday, October 31, 2016 - 10:31 am:

"That has caused many freshly rebuilt engines to seize up number one rod as the car sat with the engine at idle."

I find that hard to believe. When the initial 4 quarts of oil are put in a freshly rebuilt engine #1 trough will get filled, as well as #2, #3 and #4 (if it has a #4 trough).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 01:43 am:

Don't believe it Ken.
When you pour in the oil it fills the dip alright, but how long is it gonna stay full when the car is just running at a fast idle?
I saw it happen once and have heard about it other times. That horse shoe shaped front iron will divert all of an oil trickle around the #1 dip.
At any rate it is an easy modification to do.
Probably more number one rods have burned out than the others put together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 02:48 pm:

I have the plate off my car right now, just checking on things inside. I will be putting it back on soon and I would like to know more about the front horseshoe modification . I don't want to have the plate back off for another 95 years so now is the time to do whatever is needed. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

Just grind or file a notch or two on the very front part of the horse shoe so oil can pass under it.
.030" deep and a quarter inch wide should be enough.
Do it on the side that will face down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, November 04, 2016 - 01:15 am:

Between the center and corner holes? Both sides, left of center and right of center?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, November 04, 2016 - 03:21 am:

So is there anything wrong with tack welding the horseshoes in place? Worked real nice for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, November 04, 2016 - 11:37 am:

Only trouble with that Gene is attempting to "clean the crud out" from around the bottom rail of the crankcase with those permanently placed although I have serviced several engines done that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, November 04, 2016 - 11:51 am:

Hmmm- The last time I had the lower crankcase plate off, I used a phillips screwdriver and used it to center the holes up and then started putting the pan bolts in. I guess I could have used a long taper punch but it was in my tool box. I used what was closest which happened to be the phillips screwdriver.
I didn't want to crawl back out from under the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, November 04, 2016 - 05:13 pm:

Luckily it doesn't come off very often. I sprayed the entire inside of my engine with Gyptal and change the detergent oil often so it looks pretty clean. Guess I could have used some Ultra Black for a good seal around it, I use it for everything else...

Sure does make it easy to install the cover.


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