Won't make THAT foolish mistake again!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Won't make THAT foolish mistake again!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 03:10 pm:

Hello all, figured I'd post this embarrassing moment in case it might save someone else some grief! after re assembling everything with new head and manifold gaskets, I was still trying to track down a "miss" on my '26 touring car. Using some advice found in the forum, I removed all of the champion X's and laid them on the engine to make sure the coils were giving a good spark on each,by rotating the crank slowly,(they seemed to be ok). When I went to remove the brass caps to replace the plugs, I dropped one of the caps and it bounced off the head and disappeared somewhere in the black hole that is called my garage floor. after spending an hour looking for it on my hands and knees with a bright light, I figured that is must have rolled under something and that I would not see it again 'till I cleaned the garage floor. I was going to just replace it with a spare that I have but at the last minute "something" told me that I should double check everywhere that it could have gone. I went in the house and got this cheap scope camera that I rarely use because it has to hook up to a computer usb and I have to bring my laptop out and set it up (kind of a pain), I stuck it down the first spark plug hole and this is what I saw lurking about on top of the number one piston that was at bottom at the time!
will NEVER make this idiotic mistake again!!!!
Den


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 03:22 pm:

Dennis, you just became a member of a very non -exclusive club. That hole seems to have extraordinary gravitational pull. A little wad of sticky tape or some other mastic on a stick will get them out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 03:29 pm:

I dropped a small nut into the cylinder of one of my vintage vws. Never missed it, and only found it when the motor suddenly ran terrible. It was stuck between the valve and the seat, rendering the valve useless. It was worn perfectly smooth like a donut. I only knew it was a nut because the threads were still visible. It must have been bouncing around in there for countless years to get that smooth and rounded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 04:31 pm:

At least you didn't join the club that buttoned up everything and proceeded to start it up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 04:54 pm:

Always listen to those little voices! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 05:01 pm:

You pulled the head off to get that?!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 05:11 pm:

I thought this was a thread about ex-wives ......


Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 08:13 pm:

I was working on a straight six engine on a 1933 Plymouth rumble seat coupe. My six year old nephew was helping me in the garage. I turned my back and after a few seconds I heard a metallic "clink." Something told me to count the head studs on the work bench and there was one missing.

I asked him if maybe he dropped one into one of the many water ports and he just snaked his head. I explained that he wasn't in trouble but that I would like to know which hole. Eventually he pointed to one. I took one of those telescopic wands with a magnet on the end and thankfully was able to extract the stud. Whew ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 09:25 pm:

Wish I would have thought about the "sticky tape, and yes I did pull the head, I have done it so many times lately it has become second nature! Anyway, I fired her up and she runs but still has a terrible miss when I advance the timer past half way. back to the drawing board!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 10:07 pm:

Dennis, I'm sure this has been discussed so I apologize for tramping on an already well-trod path. ANY chance you are grounding a timer terminal ANYWHERE?? as you advance the spark??? That does the same thing as the commutator, it grounds that cylinder. Get down there and watch it while somebody moves the lever. IS the brass timer shield grounding one or more segments??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 10:40 pm:

The sticky chewing-gum cure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 10:41 pm:

any thoughts or suggestions much appreciated Jim, I will check the timer out more thoroughly tomorrow and see what I can find, it is an anderson and I was thinking that maybe I should check to make sure it is centered but will have to research how to do so, I had it all apart last winter and have been chasing this problem ever since. I do not remember removing the timing gear cover though, only the timer and coil box! thank's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 10:47 pm:

I had something similar happen, only it was on a Model A. As I was installing the oil pan underneath, the oil pump fell down into the pan. I got everything buttoned up and hit the starter. The crankshaft didn't even make a complete turn when it stopped turning. I had to take everything down again to fix it.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 10:57 pm:

Dennis:

I want to share more bad news sorta. The test you performed which caused all the extra camera and extraction work is an invalid test. It is often used and is always invalid as a test unless the coil is dead. The problem is that almost any coil will pass this easy test even one that is sparking internally and causing the problem you are looking for. Without the engine compression surrounding the spark gap and assuming the T motor has at least 4 to 1 compression then it only takes about 1/4 of the normal spark energy to jump the plug gap when the plug is out of the motor like that. This test though often used doesn't prove anything of real value. To properly test each coil you should pull the plug wires one at a time and make up a spark gap of 1/4" using even a couple of bent pieces of wire mounted to a wood block. Connect the spark plug wire to that gap and the other side to ground and verify that each coil in turn will cause a spark across that 1/4" gap. THEN you have proved the coil is at least working well enough to produce a spark when the spark is across the plug inside the motor and under compression. Some say this outside plug tests the plug wire too but High Voltage will jump across even marginal spark plug wires made from barbed wire so long as the connections are nearby. The test to prove out the coil is a valid way to diagnose the ignition but laying the plug on the head and seeing the plug spark proves nothing of much value.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 11:05 pm:

Having problem trying to delete duplicate post Sorry.

(Message edited by piewagon on October 16, 2016)

(Message edited by piewagon on October 16, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, October 17, 2016 - 09:13 am:

An Air blower on my compressor got mine out :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Adkisson on Monday, October 17, 2016 - 11:31 am:

I took a piece of clear plastic hose, just large enough to fit in the plug hole and still move around. duct taped it to my shop vac and started to probe. in a second or two I heard a rattle in the hose and opened the vac container to verify the plug cap was in there !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Monday, October 17, 2016 - 11:55 am:

What a long day it must have been. At least you didnt start it and cause damage to your engine. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, October 17, 2016 - 05:35 pm:

Thank's John, always good to hear from you, I will see if I can rig something up to check the coils but they have very few actual miles on them since being rebuilt! Do you thin k an old spark plug with a 1/4 " gap word work?
very, very frustrating tim, there were times that I think I scorched the paint on the T with some of the innovative words that I came up with, there are times when I think that I have no filter!!!
That idea about the vacuum would have worked great and I have all the necessary parts and adapters because I use the same type of setup to clean computers with, but never thought of it!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, October 17, 2016 - 08:08 pm:

Any one remember the U shaped spring steel holder that clipped into the top of the carb on the Ford 6 cyl. engine in the 60's? Had a stud on top that the air cleaner wing nut went on. Guy pulls into the shop and he's rappin' to beat the band. I mean really knocking away. He had the air cleaner in the trunk (it had fallen off the carb)so no one noticed one of the legs had snapped off this bracket and got swallowed. Larry, the head mech, narrowed it down by pulling plug wires and listening for a change. #2 was the culprit. Plug out, piston at TDC and feeling around with a thin screw driver. No cameras then! It was imbedded in the piston head but he managed to knock it free. The piece was even smaller than that nut in the picture. Problem was it decided to stand on end when it got pounded. The noise was beyond belief.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 07:19 pm:

Hopefully I have found my miss! I tried to check the strength of my coils as per
(John Reagan's suggestion) by using a small engine spark tester that I use in the garage just to see if it would work for the 1/4" gap, when I got to number 3 plug wire, I got a heck of a shock and when I stopped swearing, I noticed this!

then when I bent the wire terminal away from the coil box,the spark tester lit up like it is supposed to do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 07:24 pm:

Looks pretty definitive! Change the angle of the terminals at the coil box to be as far away from any metal as possible. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 07:38 pm:

The only problem so far is that the three other plug wires do not seem to have as strong a spark as the 3rd one did, but I am going to check them again tomorrow! I was wondering if my having the coil box top off had anything to do with them having a weaker spark, I'll put it back on and see if it ,makes a difference!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 07:42 pm:

This short at the coil box, would explain the "shock" I got a few weeks ago while attempting to see if I had a manifold leak and I thought I got my hand too close to the spark plugs with my ring on!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Wednesday, October 19, 2016 - 09:17 pm:

This is not model T related but is related to that missing bolt or nut. I was prepairing to dynamite a stump, I had the box of powder in my Studebaker pickup and I counted exactly 20 sticks and carried them to the stump I inserted the sticks down in the stump one at a time and while counting I had only 19 sticks, this was very concerning as I could not find the missing stick of dynamite. I am quite far out in the country and there was no people around, but I was still concerned that a child may find it and take it home. I started to look franticly and noticed a little dog with the dynamite in his mouth and chewing on it. I didn't want to spook the dog so I was very nice to him until I got the dynamite from him. It was well chewed however it still discharged and split the stump. I don' know where the dog came from nor did I ever see it again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, October 20, 2016 - 12:34 am:

yes, there is a small strip of hardwood that the plug wire terminal studs come out of on the side of the coil box, but I guess this third wire was too close,it must have got bent when I removed the coil box and stored it to take the engine out last winter, this may explain why I have been having all of these intermittent "bad running" problems since reinstalling the engine in the spring! I originally thought it was a carb problem and will have to see if this cures the symptoms or not once I take her for a ride!


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