I replaced the capacitors in four coils this weekend, then after replacement tuned the coils with my ECCT. All four coils test excellent with new capacitors but I noticed that I still see sparks when the car is running. Is this normal? The capacitors were from Fun Projects by the way.
As long as the sparks are not big and blue. Small sparks are normal.
It depends on where you see the sparks. Small sparks from the points are normal, but sparks elsewhere is a sign of either a loose connection or carbon tracking if on the wood parts.
I have coils that test great all except for the capacitor test.
I guess I will be digging out the tar soon.
I replaced the points (but not capacitors) and then set via ECCT, after changing the capacitors I had to adjust again. The coils came out better with the new capacitors and are more stable then before.
The most important detail of the ECCT capacitor test is that the value is not lower than 0.47uF. Lower values will result in accelerated point contact wear. Higher values can indicate higher than normal leakage, which unless severe, has minimal impact on coil function.
The ECCT capacitor test is very sensitive and can be skewed by false leakage paths such as fingers touching both point elements, leakage through the coil iron core or conductive paint on the top surface of the coil. You can eliminate the first two by placing a plastic bag over the point elements to insulate your fingers from touching both point elements and place a piece of paper between the coil iron core and vibrator spring to prevent contact, then repeat the capacitor test. You can test for conductive paint using an Ohm meter to measure the resististivity of the painted surface. The reading should be greater than 10M Ohms with the probes placed about 1/8" apart. Lower values of resistance will cause a poor capacitor test result but again, will have little effect on coil performance unless very low resistance. One advantage of the Advanced Features Software is being able to read separate numerical values of the capacitor value and leakage resistance. That makes it easy to know when the leakage value falls below the normal range above 10M and just how bad it is. Leakage above 100K Ohms will not effect capacitor function or coil operation. The test result will register as poor because it tells you something is not normal compared to a properly functioning coil and capacitor.
You should have the coils adjusted properly on a HCCT or Strobe O Spark. The improvement will be stunning compared to where you are now.
Never mind Royce's rambling Philip. Apparently he is awake today. Neither the HCCT or Strobo-spark are as accurate as the ECCT.
Yes, this is Royce's second ECCT bash in just a few days. Ignore and move on
Perhaps you have been overdosing on the Kossar Kool Aid?
The never ending infomercial assertions of ECCT superiority posted here are absurd. C'mon a "plastic bag", really?
Would it make a difference in a football game if you measured the length of the field with a micrometer?
The truth is the ECCT does not test the Model T coil in the same manner as the HCCT or Strobo-Spark. And if it did, measuring the results using ten digits to the right of a decimal point would not help in the slightest.
Its a Model T not a Lunar Lander!
You will also get sparking if the contact points are not parallel. Look at them closely if you can see where the contacts are not flush when closed this will cause excessive sparking and will burn the points much faster.
I am a little confused at the plastic bag trick. Do you cover all coils while operating or this this just a test. All I know is that a timer and coils make a world of difference in a Model Ts performance. Interesting.
Ron, you are absolutely correct in noting the ECCT does not test the Model T coil in the same manner as the HCCT or Strobo-Spark; it does not use coil current as an indirect approximation of dwell time to fire, the ECCT accurately measures dwell time to fire since that is the parameter that directly determines ignition timing and engine performance.
Another astute observation, the Model T engine not a Lunar Lander but it IS a Spark Ignition combustion engine with typical upper operating range of 2000 to 2500 RPM. Four digit accuracy to the right of the decimal point is absolutely necessary to correctly and consistently adjust Model T coils for best engine performance. Just 0.001s of timing error equates to over 12 degrees of ignition timing error! What is the timing accuracy can you guarantee using the HCCT or Strobo-Spark coil current approximation of dwell time to fire spark; do you have any idea at all? You would know with certainty to within 0.00004s if you used an ECCT to adjust your coils.
By the way, claims of superior engine performance using ECCT adjusted coils are being made by an increasing number of very experienced coil rebuilders who actually took the initiative to try the ECCT and evaluated their ECCT adjusted coils in their cars on the road.
Warren, your fingers can actually conduct electricity so accidently touching both point elements while holding the points open can create a false leakage path that can skew the capacitor leakage test result. The purpose of draping a small plastic bag over the points is to insulate your fingers from touching the point elements when you hold the points open for the capacitor test. The plastic insulator can be removed after the capacitor test is done.
Obviously Mr Kossor's attacks are due to the truth in what I say. Anyone can learn the truth, just test a set of ECCT set coils on any of the real coil testers.
How can one test the conductivity of the plastic in which said bag is made of? I'm sure some plastic is a better insulator than others. Is there a recommended thickness of said plastic? What about moisture level? Most people probably don't realize that plastics do absorb moisture. These and probably many other factors could impact resistance readings.
Royce, what "attack" are you referring to?
Performance of ECCT adjusted coils should be judged in a properly maintained Model T engine, in on road performance tests NOT in coil testers that use coil current as indirect approximation of dwell time to fire.
All, except you, who have conducted such on road test engine performance evaluations report at least equal performance and several reported superior performance using ECCT adjusted coils.
Given there are scores of ECCTs now in use and zero complaints like yours here or else where; only praise, one has to wonder about the validity of your data and agenda. How about I supply you with a set of ECCT adjusted coils and you BLINDLY evaluate them and sets of coils from Ron, John or anyone else then report your road test engine performance results BEFORE you know which coils were which? I'm 100% confident the ECCT adjusted coils will rank equal or superior to coils adjusted using any other test method. I'm also equally confident you would Never agree to participate in such a coil performance comparison conducted blindly and impartially with equal probability of criticizing a favored test method or supplier.
(Message edited by mkossor on October 20, 2016)
Hal, if in doubt; you can use an Ohm meter to ensure the plastic bag you use has an insulation resistance of greater than 10M Ohms.
I would be more concerned about finding leakage through the iron core. That means there is partial breakdown between the primary winding insulation and the iron core. This is a topic which Ron could actually add value by commenting on the implication of such a compromise using a megger to test insulation integrity.
The Model T Ford does not have a "spark ignition combustion engine with typical upper operating range of 2000 to 2500 RPM"!
Closer to 500 to 1600 RPM would be more like it.
No Kool-Aid here Ron. Royce made an observation and so did I. That's all.
Ron, If your only achieving a top end of 1600 RPM with your coils, I certainly can understand your skepticism, I respectfully suggest you give a set of ECCT adjusted coils a try; I'd be happy to tune up a set of your coils for you.
ECCT adjusted coils easily achieve 2000 RPM in my 1927 Touring which I believe is a relatively stock engine operating on magneto with new day timer and vaporizer carburetor. The peak RPM reading recorded on my TDAS tachometer was 2333 RPM during this ECCT coil test evaluation.
That RPM is about 60 MPH and not 35. Maybe your deal is off?
Gary, No; that RPM is about 20MPH in low pedal about 8 seconds into the run. See the peak RPM on the chart just prior to shifting to high pedal.
Maybe we need to start calling Royce the Wizard of OZ, and learn to pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
I copied and paste the text and images below from a previous discussion here:
Really, I think Kossor should reimburse anyone who purchased the ECCT. It does not work as advertised.
The cheaply made plastic ECCT is incapable of detecting double sparking coils. So any coils set on that device don't work well in the car on MAG. One of our club members set a bunch of coils on the kossor device, and we then tested them in a car, on an HCCT, and in a Strobe - O - Spark.
The HCCT and the Strobe - O - Spark consistently produced good working coils. The plastic ECCT did not produce good working coils.
The coils set in the plastic ECCT run badly in the car on MAG. The plastic ECCT set coils (50% of the sampled units) double spark.
Oddly enough, the plastic ECCT often could not even produce a spark on certain coils. We quickly realized that the cheap aluminum contacts were not touching the coil contacts unless you held pressure against the coil to force contact. This is not an issue with real wood and metal devices that use Ford copper contacts.
Anyways, decide for yourself. Try the ECCT, then take a look at how badly the coils work in a car, or on a real coil testing device like an HCCT.
I took videos of the car running on plastic ECCT coils, and then with a set of coils rebuilt by John Regan in 2007. The plastic ECCT set coils run rough on MAG, one cylinder does not fire reliably until it gets up to cruising speed, causing a loss in power at most driving speeds.
Coils set on the plastic ECCT:
Coils set in 2007 using a good coil tester:
Aluminum contacts? The continuing lies from Royce, but hardly surprising. Someone like yourself Royce should know how to discern aluminum from other metals. The more lies you come up with, the more you damage your own reputation here. Go pedal your misinformation somewhere else.
Have you ever seen one? It has aluminum contacts.
The unit we had here in my garage was Mr Kossor's personal property, on loan to a member of the Lone Star T Club for evaluation. We had Mr Kossor on the speaker phone several times when it appeared that the device was not working properly to make sure that the instructions were being followed.
Apparently the contacts were not capable of contacting a Ford coil without you forcing the coil to one side. Kind of like a worn out 8 track tape player, maybe we could have wedged a match book in there to compensate LOL!
No dog in this fight really but I've seen this discussion so often here with all the same contestants I "feel the need". The ECCT's been out there for a while and so far no owners/users are complaining. It's available and compaerable in price to one of the 3 options available That's got to count for something. The HCCT is big, bulky, expensive, not readily available and usually in need or repairs when found. It does work and was a mainstay for many years. Doesn't mean it's best.
I can't comment on the Strobo Spark beyond the fact that the owners/users swear by it too. It appears (as usual) to be your choice and that's all it'll ever be. Storage space, $ available and your preference.
I agree with G.R. that the points must be in the best alignment possible...even to the point of washers under the sunken posts or a core that is too high. I look at the points with a magnifying lens from different angles! Can't always trust these aging eyes
I live in the woods in Vermont,don't get out much,don't want to.I know where Lang's is neat place,where is fun projects located,sounds like a place every one should know about.very interesting coil talk.thank you all,Greg
Whenever I read one of these "pissing contests" about which type of coil tester is best I become sad. I want to think that we are better than this. I have been on this forum since some time in the previous century (I did not note the date) and have read posts from all of the contributors to this thread. They are knowledgeable fellows and I respect and agree with much of what they have had to say over the years.
I want to believe that we all can agree that coils really need to be adjusted using some type of coil testing device and not by ear. The argument starts regarding Which One to use and the manner by which the coil is operated and tested by each different device.
All three (HCCT, ECCT, and Strobo-Spark) will enable the user to adjust the coils to operate well. I will repeat that for emphasis, all three will enable the user to adjust the coils to operate well.
The HCCT and the Strobo-Spark allow the user to adjust the coils to achieve uniform current draw. The ECCT allows the user to adjust the coils for uniform time to fire.
All three Will indicate if a coil is double sparking so that the user can adjust away that condition.
I have used all three coil testers.
The coils in my runabout are adjusted using an ECCT and they operate well. The car starts well, runs well, climbs almost all hills in high gear ( I do realise that that is a benefit which may be of little value to the flatland readers), and has allowed higher cruising speeds which I don't utilize too often as I prefer to keep it under forty MPH. Oh, and the car has topped out at 54 MPH.
Take your pick, spend your money, have fun rebuilding and adjusting your coils, have More fun driving your now Well Running car and don't listen to those who tell you that you should have bought This instead if That. Good luck with your project. Bill
Royce, why don’t you tell the Forum the WHOLE story? I think they deserve to know what a deceitful, devious and disingenuous individual you really are. You forgot to mention your pal Dennis obtained the loaner ECCT from me under fraudulent terms by deceiving me into thinking I was supporting a Dallas, Lone-Star T’s Model T club presentation on coil testing. Here is the real story on what happened and by the way, I have ALL the e-mails to substantiate every single word of it.
I received an email from your pal Dennis who said he was affiliated the Dallas Model T club and wanted to know if there were any ECCT users in his area willing to lend him the ECCT for a demo for his club. I contacted someone nearby and asked if he would be willing to do a demo for the Dallas club; no response. I thought about sending him a demo ECCT which I sometimes do to support Model T club activities but was concerned it was all as set up for a hit job on the ECCT. I advised Dennis of the no response and suggested he contact Royce who is a member of the same club who pledged to do a comparison of ALL Model T coil testers, including the ECCT. Dennis informed me that "Royce moved 400 miles away to Georgetown, TX and was no longer a member of the Dallas Model T club". 3 weeks go by and Dennis again emails me asking if I had received any word from the ECCT owner in Dallas or if anyone else in the area now willing to do a demo for the Dallas club. I advised him I had not. I recalled seeing Royce change his forum post location to Georgetown so I figured it would be safe to send Dennis a loaner ECCT for a couple (2) weeks to learn and demonstrate to his club so off the ECCT went with the stipulation I receive feedback from Dallas club members (positive and negative) to help make the ECCT a better product. A while later, in April, Dennis sends me an email accepting my offer so off it went. 10 days go by, I send an email; did you receive the ECCT? --- Nothing --- I tried calling; No answer. 1 Month goes by, I send another email; Did you receive the ECCT? Finally, an e-mail with questions.
Some unusual questions like: Why does the spark sound louder on some coils than others? Will the capacitor test show valid results without points? It was also very apparent to me he had not even bothered to read the ECCT instruction manual or view the demo videos and seemed to have little coil adjusting experience. I called Dennis on the phone to address his questions in more detail and provide some coaching on coil point adjusting. I had absolutely no idea Dennis put me on speaker phone with an audience including Royce Peterson listening in. Thanks for that actionable statement Royce.
More time passes; I did not hear any response from Dennis or anyone else in the Dallas Model T club. Texas had lots of heavy rain and flooding in the Dallas area so I was patient. Another month goes by without hearing anything so I figured I was not going to get any and considering the questions Dennis asked, I thought he may not have had any experience adjusting coils at all so I emailed Dennis and asked him to return the ECCT that he now had much longer than we agreed. Dennis did return the ECCT in good condition. I asked Dennis for other Dallas club members to share their comments with me as we agreed but nothing…. Then in July, Royce “exposes the ECCT” going off on his maligning rant of what a piece of junk it is. Coils double spark tested on the HCCT, Poor results with my personal guidance on coil adjusting to their club member Dennis… I immediately called Dennis and told him I didn’t appreciate him deceiving me about Royce and their intent to malign the ECCT. He said that is not what happened at all; Royce moved back to the Dallas area during the time he was waiting for an ECCT user to respond; he just never mentioned that to me…. Just like he failed to inform me I was being placed on speaker phone with Royce Peterson present – I believe that is an actionable offence! In the ensuing exchange I had with Dennis he wrote: “I apologize for not sharing the results with more members in our local Club. I did not feel confident that I was a good representative for the ECCT since I could not get consistent results from coils set on the ECCT. “. Royce fails to mention this minor little detail the coils were never properly adjusted with the ECCT in his maligning rant of BS about the ECCT.
I invested a lot of time and effort developing the ECCT for the benefit of the Model T hobby just as I have done with E-Timer electronic ignition. It is extremely gratifying that both ECCT and E-Timer are earning distinguished reputations as highly reliable and highly desirable choices for the Model T hobby by the overwhelming majority in the Model T hobby despite your despicable campaign of misinformation and deceit to persuade folks otherwise. You sir are no champion of the Model T hobby, and quite frankly, should be ashamed of your conduct.
I highly doubt this went anywhere but over their heads Mike. It is because of the person you posted about many have left the forum. I almost did due to his holier than thou attitude back in 07 but decided to stay, if for no other reason but to be a thorn since I no longer own T's
The ECCT adjusts coils time to fire on DC voltage. If you understand Model T coils, you know that this guarantees the coils will not be synchronized with regard to time or current when operating on AC voltage. It insures that the coils will be completely out of synch with each other when the car runs on MAG.
If this is how the ECCT is intended to work then it is entirely successful. I am not attacking anything, and I did not insult anyone here. The device is utterly useless if you want to operate your Model T on MAG. That is a fact.
Another fact is that I run my T on mag with ECCT adjusted coils and it runs Great. Please read my post above. As Sgt. Friday would request: "Just the facts sir". Bill
Royce, I respect your right to voice opinions that further disparage your reputation and make an even greater fool of yourself here, however, making claims of fact which are total lies about the ECCT, affirmed by many ECCT users are lies, is a total dis-service to the hobby, this forum and should not be tolerated.
As Gary points out, you have a long, sustained history of sowing discord on this forum spurring arguments, causing frustration and hostilities in what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby of similar interests and collaborating experiences. Instead, your belligerent and divisive behavior has caused many to withdraw and cease participation; several folks which I know of personally. Temporary posting suspensions have had no effect in curbing your errant conduct. I sincerely hope the moderator and MTFCA board has taken note of your behavior and invokes appropriate action. I would also hope those disgusted or dispirited by your conduct petition the board to suspend your posting privilege rather than withdraw from participation. The forum was far more harmonious during your last time out.
I do have an ECCT and have never had a problem with its contacts. A simple test with a magnet proves the contacts are not aluminum. I'm sure you would agree if you had done likewise.
ENOUGH!!! Sometimes reading this forum is like watching a bunch of kindergartner's on the playground! Each side believing he is more sanctimonious than the other. As a member of the Board of Directors I get emails and phone calls from people complaining about one side or the other equally. Some complain that Mike takes every chance he can get to promote his product any time the subject of coils comes up. Others complain that Royce is being a bully any time the subject comes up. What I do know is that with the number of complaints that I have received, most people have heard enough of the back and forth on this subject. I know both men involved are both gentlemen, I have personally worked with both of them. This needs to end on a gentleman’s agreement to disagree! I don’t believe banning people is the answer, I do believe acting like gentleman is.
Vice-President, MTFCA BoD
Mike respectively speaking it takes time to prevent the facts insight and sound of all the misinformation that is trying to be pushed on this subject. Please allow the facts to be presented here thank you
Sorry, present the facts.
Thank you Mike! Actually, it's really not quite "like watching a bunch of kindergartner's on the playground"! Usually, those kindergartners have forgotten all about whatever "issues" took place on the previous day! I always think we could all learn a lot from those little guys,......harold
Mike, I appreciate your views but respectfully disagree the answer is as simple as acting like Gentlemen. Gentleman acknowledge they are wrong when numerous people repeatedly tell them they are wrong. Gentlemen accept responsibility for their actions and consider it a learning experience. Bullies engage in a campaign of deceit and lies to prove their position correct regardless of what they are repeatedly told, who they repeatedly offend or who they repeatedly mislead in the process.
I accept your admonishment for promoting my products at every opportunity I get but maintain my conduct has benefited the hobby, earning the praise of many and scorn of few. I can understand your criticism of me being sanctimonious but viewing my behavior to that of Royce in a sanctimonious contest I find offensive, obtuse and indefensible.
Forum participants with sustained history sowing discord, starting arguments or upsetting people by posting inflammatory false comments with the deliberate intent to mislead or provoking readers into an emotional response have no place on the MTFCA forum and should have their forum posting privileges revoked; temporarily to deter such behavior and permanently if that behavior persists. The MTFCA forum will become a useless resource that few will want to participate if there is no accountability of the information permitted to be posted or errant behavior permitted without consequence. As MTFCA BoD member, that responsibility lies with you and the other board members. As MTFCA member and forum participant I sincerely hope you and the board act appropriately to not let that happen.
I'll be a good boy, but I won't let damaging comments go unanswered, ever.
I have to say Royce that you are a fountain of information. I wish I had your memory for details and data which probably extend well past automobiles.
This is as bad as the "IBM" vx "Apple" argument. I think the "facts" have been presented here ad finitum, and those on either side will never accept the other as "better." Both methods have their benefits and I cannot say one or the other is "best."
Of course, one can always see the thread subject and skip over it too.
David, it's not even an argument of which method is better.
It is statements of "fact" that the tester I developed doesn't work! That I "should reimburse anyone who purchased the ECCT. It does not work as advertised."
The inference that people who purchased my products got duped into buying "plastic piece of junk".
Those are the issues that should be considered bad and unacceptable; because they are lies. Not which method is better. Both method do have their merits and I have never criticized anyone for using the method of their choice.
Sorry guys Mike is correct.... If you read the recent posts that Royce wrote they are full of attacks and misinformation and false statements!
He of course states them as being a Fact. I just like many others here on the Forum highly respect the knowledge of Royce but I truly believe that there is some times something wrong with him. He has an enormous amount of experience with T's but has ruined his reputation with these childish remarks then assures everyone that they are Facts.. NOT SO.
Why have so many people bought and are avid users of Kossors products? We do not hear reports of failures and misadvertisements concerning either the ECCT or the ETimer. People love them both and highly respect his work and knowledge. I believe any user of his units is Very appreciative of the work he has done which makes their cars run and perform better than they have ever before!
THANKS MIKE for all the effort you've done and ALL the CRAP you've put up with. It's a SHAME
I guess I haven't followed all of the posts. I know I have read your posts with great interest, and if I were a little more flush, I'd probably get one of your units--it certainly takes up less space than a HCCT (which I do have)!
This thread makes me happy I run a dizzy----not proper but I understand it and it does every thing I want!
Paul - ,,,,and one other thing,.....if something does go wrong with it, you won't have to pull the entire engine out and tear it completely down to get to the problem as all distributor ignition system components are "external", right?
I'll second that thought of Gene's....."THANKS MIKE for all the effort you've done and ALL the CRAP you've put up with. It's a SHAME" .
Hopefully Mike Vaughn and the other BOD's will review all related ECCT & E-Timer posts to confirm all Mike Kossor has had to do to support his products with research and technical proof against all the "crap" he had to put up with.
But Harold - what about the charm of the buzzing coils? Only being lightly facetious here as I suspect you are. I have argued with myself on the various merits and have full respect for using the original system or any of the alternatives like distributors or high tension mags. I admire those who can make the coils sing but it's not my talent (nor do I own the tools). I have a set of stock coils from Ron P. and they run great, have also got one of the infamous E-Timers that let me run buzzing coils and it works fine as well. I run a distributor on my speedster for many of the reasons others run them. I pretty much like any system that keeps the T and owner running well and happy.
Mike, Royce, both you guys have reputations here and both are respected in their fields of knowledge. I think it's time you guys stopped answering each other because this is pretty much a water pump, MMO and stabil thing. No minds will be changes no matter how long the post is allowed to go on. I think you'd both be much bigger by just laying off. WE all know what's going on. Preserve your good names and take a well earned break.
I find it strange and disappointing, that a small minority seem to take every opportunity to try and discredit Mike Kossor's products, without ever having actually used them.
Take this thread for example. All very civil to start with and the OP happens to mention he uses an ECCT. It doesn't take long for a couple of negative comments to appear re his choice of coil tester.
We don't seem to get that same negativity or personal criticism in other threads where mention is made of other accessories which happen to be made available by other forum participants.
Is the Model T world so conservative that thinking outside of the square and coming up with new and innovative ways of doing things, rather than only permitting century old methods, is such a sin?
What is particularly damaging is for those new to the Model T scene, reading this forum trying to learn as much as they can, and believing false or incorrect statements made by people who initially appear to be an irrefutable expert.
As an electrical engineer, I could see the desirability for both an electronic timer, and an electronic coil tester way back when I first became involved in Model T's. So, it was fascinating to study and test both these accessories after Mike had made them available. I really couldn't fault them. They work exactly as claimed, and a year later I still wouldn't be without them.
Without this forum, I would not have known about the ECCT, E-Timer, and all the other parts that have come to exist for the benefit of Model T owners. So, mentioning products that are available and members use is hardly a bad thing.
You don't know what you don't know. Try all three devices side by side. Then tell me what you know.
Royce, Your comment to and about JohnH is Not in Good Taste and in my opinion out of line at this time.
We all very much know what your view and idea is.
Please continue to enlighten us and delight us with your other posts and pictures that are excellent and for the good of many Model Ters here that use the forum to make their cars run better. With that said, Spend your time constructively on another subject PLEASE
I only say things that are true. You won't find me ever insulting anyone. I wish you the very best.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe setting coils by dwell time to fire has been used by some Montana 500 entrants. If as I understand it, the aim is to extract the best performance out of a standard Model T, then I fail to see how this method of coil adjustment can be considered illegitimate.
Experiences from myself and others also support the efficacy of dwell time to fire coil adjustments. Car drives smooth, fast, and with good low end torque. What's wrong with that?
I'm not sure there's a lot of value in running a set of coils through all the different types of coil tester, except out of curiosity. Operating with different principles, a coil set up in one is likely to give different results in another.
Test driving with them in a car is really what counts.