I have a five-year-old Generac 15,000 GP generator. It has a 30 HP gasoline engine with a gravity fed carbureted gasoline fuel system. It has an inline paper filter. It will run at 3600 RPM with a 50 amp load until it runs out of gas. I change the oil once a year and run it until warm at least once a month. I put stabilizer in the gas and replace it once a year. I have never replaced the paper filter. The old gas goes in my Ford Ranger which has fuel injection and burns the old gas no problem. This system works, it is reliable and dependable, I can count on it and I don't have to worry about problems when I need it.
This morning I started TT no problem. I backed her out of the garage and had her idling to warm up when she cut off. Carburetion. When I opened the valve at the bottom of the carb the bowl emptied, but did not refill, there was a stuck valve in a carb recently rebuilt by a professional rebuilder and fed by a cleaned tank, new 3/8" copper line, and PAPER FILTER just before the carb. The gas is a couple of weeks old and has stabilizer. There was no trash in the line, the valve just got stuck closed.
I know, two dozen posters warned me to not let a professional rebuild the carburetor, and many said not to use a paper filter. Why can't a professional rebuild a simple carb like on a T? Why does a paper filter work on my 3600 rpm generator which has never had a carb problem, but not on a T?
I expect a home generator with gravity fed gas, a paper filter, and a carb to be reliable for five years, and it is. I do not understand why Model T carbs are so problematic.
There are many mechanics and engineers who drive T's. I sure wish you guys would come up with a reliable carburetion system for T's. Maybe I could get an adapter and put a generator carb on TT.
Lose the filter,clean tank and check the vent hole.Not necessarily in that order.
Not necessarily the filter although the stock sediment bowl should be enough. If you wish more filtering, the glass bowl type as used on old tractors might serve you better than the paper filter. Check to see what type of float needle was installed. If it isn't the old style needle, then change it to that.
Model T's are extraordinarily reliable until someone starts adding unnecessary things. Lose the paper filter. Rebuild the carburetor yourself, they are very simple devices.
I would almost bet your generator has an impulse type fuel pump. Most do.
As I remember it, your professional rebuilder was a local speed shop. An outfit like that is likely to be totally unfamiliar with any Model T carburetor. I'm assuming the carb on your 24 is a Holley NH. That's about as bullet-proof and reliable as a carburetor can get, if it's set up correctly. What kind of float valve is in it? As John says, the original type is best.
This isn't urgent, but when you get around to it I'd suggest replacing the copper fuel line with steel brake line. Copper has been known to break from metal fatigue brought on by vibration.
Nobody has come up with a reliable carburetion system for T's lately because Ford already did it a century ago. Unfortunately it often gets "improved" into unreliability.
Yes, rebuilt by a local speed shop that has a department that only rebuilds carbs. I find it confusing that T carbs are a very simple design that any owner can rebuild, but not a speed shop that rebuilds carbs professionally.
They put in a Grose Jet. I have been reading a lot of archived forum material, I now think the Grose Jet is the problem.
If that is true then both the paper filter and the gross jet need to go away. Either of those things will stop a T from running properly.
The Grose Jet will go away. I want reliability. I have read too much about them from previous forum threads. It would be difficult to describe how aggravated I was.
I will wait until the paper filter gives me problems before removing it. I don't understand why a paper filter will work for years on a lawn mower or generator, but not a Model T. Yeah, I tend to learn the hard way...
Lang Lang is a professional musician, but that doesn't mean he can play a banjo. A speed shop doubtless has a lot of experience with carburetors and zero experience with Model T carburetors. They simply wouldn't know any more about them than the general public does, and would assume that any part sold to them is fine. I suspect if you asked them how they cleaned the passages the answer would not be reassuring.
If the tank is reasonably clean a fuel filter won't really do much more good than the regular sediment bowl. One issue I have experienced is that many carb kits use viton tipped needles. Lots of folks use them with no issues, some of us have had no end of problems with them. I have found that if you leave gas in your carb for extended periods of time (often no more than a couple of days), the needle will stick in the seat. I've had this problem on more than one engine of all types. What I do to address this is to shut off the fuel to the engine and run it out of the bowl if I am not driving the car for more than a day or so. That leaves the float and needle hanging in the bowl. What I have also found is that if you have a minor burr on the seat, a viton tipped needle may have a tendency to stick more...particularly if left sitting full of gas for a while. To deal with that I try to find a good brass ORIGINAL needle and lap it gently into the seat with toothpaste. So far that has been more reliable than either viton tipped needles or gross jet set-ups.
Your generator has an in-line filter that is designed for gravity fed systems. 90% of 4 cycle mowers, generators, snow blowers ect. use this type of filter. Their available on line or at a mower shop. They work and they cause no problems as you can tell by your unchanged generator filter. Believe they are available in 1/4" & 3/8" line sizes. Their usable on the T. I've done it & it works fine but the filter must be for a gravity fed system. Lose the grosse jet (problem) and the brass fuel line.
TT newbie..I vote for the grose jet. Had a fellow club member get a "new" rebuild one from a vendor and it wouldn't start the engine from day one. Told him to open it up and look, and there it was. Put the needle valve in from the bad carb and solved the problem.
The viton tip needle is the only one I have had any success with. Mine has been on the car for 3 years, never stuck, and never leaked a drop.
I have tried grose jets and stock type brass needles that I always had to crawl under the car to shut the valve off any time I stopped. Multiple times I forgot, only to come into the garage a day or two later with puddles of gas on the floor and a couple gallons missing from the tank.
The viton tip works great for me, even with the 10% ethanol we have to deal with here.
Two things to check first before you do anything:
1. be sure the fuel valve is open. 2. Tap on the top of the carburetor. Sometimes tapping will unstick the valve.
As said above if your carburetor has a grose valve, change it to a needle and seat.
The location of the gas tank under the seat leaves very little gravity for the gas to flow. So any obstruction in the line such as an in line filter sometimes impedes the flow of gas. Another problem is vapor lock. If any portion of the fuel line is high any air or vapor in the line rises to that high spot and compresses The line should go up at both ends and the lowest point in the middle. If you have the tank in the cowl as is in 26-27 The line should go down all the way from the tank to the carb. Some people will put a loop in the line. That is another place for an air bubble to form.
I live in California with the strangest fuel mixture in the world and I use no stabilizer in my gas without a problem. Of course our weather allows year round driving of the Model T's.
Here is a step - by - step on replacing a Grose Jet with a good needle and seat to restore functionality to the carburetor:
Thanks for posting that Royce. I have ordered:
NH and Vaporizer needle and seat-Exact copy of Original
Item Number : 6212OR
Year : 1920-1927
This is obviously what I should have done two months ago, live and learn.
I hope to receive it early next week.
I hear you and many others on the paper filter. BUT... it has excellent flow and the car ran well until the Grose Jet locked closed. That was not the fault of the filter. I am going to guess that others may have put filters in designed for much smaller engines and that did not allow enough flow. The one I installed is big. OTOH, I have been wrong before...
I initially installed a grosse jet in my vaporizer when I rebuilt it and took it out as it did not improve the performance.
Thomas, read this thread with pictures about the new "exact copy of original" NH float valves: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/508178.html?1422895026
Smoothing the tip with a scotch brite pad isn't enough with the new valves, but you should be able to smoothen it with a stone with the electric drill fastened in a vice. Don't lap the tip to the seat, just use a hammer to smack the valve into the seat when the seat is installed.
Worked for me - I had endless problems with a flooding carb until I did this smoothening the tip and smacking it in place once, then it was A-OK
TT newby Thomas R. Hicks - Not sure if this has been addressed in this ever-growing and interesting thread, but, for what it's worth:
I believe it has been developed that while the inline paper filter can often be troublesome in a Model T or Model TT. I believe it has also been developed that there is one difference in Model T's that seems to have a great effect on the success or failure of the inline paper filter. That difference is the fact that such filters seem to work somewhat better in the "new improved" Model T's. ("new improved" being the '26 & '27 Model T's). This is because the '26 & '27 T's have a cowl gasoline tank, whereas most of the earlier T's have the tank mounted under the front seat. In effect, that means that the gasoline tank is considerably higher than the carburetor in the T's with the cowl tank than the earlier T's with the fuel tank under the seat. Also, the longer and more nearly horizontal path of the gasoline line with the under-seat gasoline tank does not help either. Consider then, if you will, that your Generac generator probably has a longer and more vertical fuel line "drop" from tank to carburetor, comparable tho the more favorable cowl tank design of the "new improved" '26 & '27 Model T's. FWIW,......harold
Keep everything Ford and it will be reliable.
Get rid of the paper filter. If you need a filter to keep junk out of the carb then you need a new tank.
I've used filters on both my "improved" coupe as well as my 25 touring. Not a problem on either. If you suspect there is unwanted stuff in the tank or fuel line that is getting to the carb it's real easy to install a clear plastic filter intended for gravity feed. You can then check it occasionally to see if it's capturing anything. Keep it (and a spare) until it seems to no longer be needed. If there is an ongoing problem, the other fairly easy add on is a sediment bowl with a glass bowl so you can see what is happening. It is possible on a 25 or earlier car that you may want to keep a few gallons more in the tank when running a filter but it really isn't all that hard to run off the top half of the tank rather than the bottom and few of us are so remote that we can't find a fuel stop in range.
If it turns out the tank has real problems, then clean and coat it or replace it but I wouldn't go there until I knew it was necessary.
Mr. Karlsson, I appreciate your link, but it has got to be kidding. I can't just install the new valve and seat? I have to smoothen the valve and smack it into place? Smoothen and smack? and maybe some toothpaste would help?! How can anyone go wrong with detailed instruction like that? I am not a machinist, I am a parts changer. I see where this is going. I remove the carb, I replace the needle and seat, I replace the carb, it leaks, I have to remove and mess with it, reinstall, rinse and repeat often.
Lang's has a two month wait for a rebuilt NH. A professional speed shop can not rebuild a Model T carb. A T carb is such a simple design that any owner can rebuild one. If you want a rebuilt carb you better get it from someone who does it all the time and has a good reputation often mentioned on this forum, and now I have to spend an afternoon smoothing and smacking an original style needle valve because the replacement valves made by Grose are no good and the original type will not work when new out of the package.
As a Newby I find it very confusing that you guys put up with all this crap and have not come up with a carb that can be bolted on that will work reliably. A carburetor is basic, it is necessary for the equipment to operate properly, it is not rocket science. Is it too much to ask that one can buy a carb, put it on, and have it work reliably? It looks to me that the only thing one can rely on with a Model T carb is it will either flood or refuse to allow any flow. And yes, I find this very aggravating.
I think the guys are saying what works for them. I was having an issue with my 24 Coupe's NH leaking with the viton tipped needle. I found a good original needle and seat in my carb parts box. I cleaned up the needle by chucking it in my cordless drill and polished it up with some fine sandpaper. No leaks now. That's what worked for me.
This is a case of old being better.
Hey, if you're not into fiddling with old parts to get them to work, then maybe a Model T isn't your type of vehicle?
I spent max 10 - 20 minutes fixing my valve and got a year of fun from it until I changed to another type of carburetor - and it was an old valve I fixed, old Ford parts are almost always preferred if they can be refurbished and made to work..
Most of those who comments at this forum are experienced and tells what worked for them. You've been told the easiest way to fix your car, but still choose to take a longer and more expensive route. Good luck to you ;)
T's are cheap cars, and many of those who has them (including me) can't really afford more expensive antique cars. Still there are a lot of T's, so there is a market for spare parts, but not much money in it, thus there are lots of half baked parts coming from the vendors, and the customers have had to learn to adjust most of them to fit..
Fixing the new needles in no big deal at all and it certainly will not take all day as you suggest. Take the new needle and spin it slowly against a wet stone or very fine sandpaper with a drill then clean it and sit it in the seat and give it a light tap with a small hammer then adjust the float as specified in the Ford manual. At the most it will take 30 minutes to take the carb off and fix it. Also, do not order a rebuilt carb from one of the vendors. It will have a grosse get in it and you will have the exact same problem that you have now.
I just bought three of the new needle / seat assemblies. Like I did to the old original in the link I shared, I just chuck the needle in a drill and hold it against a piece of 400 grit sandpaper until it is shiny, maybe 15 - 20 seconds.
Yes it would be great to be able to take one out of the box and use it as is. But at least these parts can be used with a minimum amount of fuss. If you had an antique Chevrolet or Dodge or Graham truck you would be able to order exactly nothing.
tt newbee - I'm wondering if you inherited your Model TT or if you bought it. If you bought it, that might have been a mistake and I'm thinking that like Roger K. said, the Model T Ford hobby just might drive you crazy as you sound like a perfectionist. And that's okay,....this hobby isn't really for everybody,....ya' hafta' be a little "strange" to put up with the constant "fiddling" around that's necessary to keep an ol' flivver running right. One thing that this hobby will do very quickly is to convince one that automobiles and "engineering" have come a long way! And as far as why it's confusing to you why your local speed shop can't rebuild such a simple carburetor,....well, it's because they never, ever, have to pay attention to little details that are unique to hundred year old carburetors. They are so used to dealing with intricate parts and components that are perfectly engineered and fit perfectly, every time! That just wasn't the case a hundred years ago, and it's also a reason why no two Model T's are exactly alike and why each one has a personality of it's own!
Think of it this way,.....it just does't make sense to expect (or even want) crystal clear high fidelity sound out of a hundred year old RCA Victor "Victrola" that you have to crank up to play music! FWIW,.....harold
Well said Harold, well said. TT newbie, I understand your frustration about the bad parts and all the things you have done, just to be back at square one. That being said, owning a Model T should be an enjoyable HOBBY, where tinkering is just as much fun as driving. Keep the faith, I'm sure once you get this problem straightened out and begin to enjoy your T, you will become as fanatical as the rest of us here.
The really frustrating thing about the carburetor needles is that doing them right would not take much more from the manufacturing point.
Parts that don't quite fit has been the norm for decades. There are some folks out there who carefully make parts "to the print" and provide us with wonderful stuff. Yes, it usually costs a little more, but it is so much less frustrating!!
When people are put off by the Model T's slowness, I tell them if you want to go fast get a Packard. Unless you turn it into a speedster, slowness is part of the Model T deal. The same goes for tinkering. If you don't want to tinker, get a Camry. Tinkering is part of the Model T deal. It's pretty much built in. You have choices. 1 Learn to enjoy tinkering, which includes research and study (books, magazines, videos, forum, etc.). 2 Hire somebody to do all the tinkering for you. Your speed shop experience demonstrates that that doesn't always work. 3 Ditch the TT and take up some other hobby.
This week I've been dismantling transmissions looking for good drums, and sandblasting and painting parts. Recently I made a new low pedal linkage. I set the timing on my cars so they start easy, I install new transmission bands, I mount clincher tires, and I assembled some new wheels for my touring. I went to the juco and used one of their lathes to rebuild figure eight shackles for my 1915. I do my own carburetor repair. Before I got seriously into the Model T world nine years ago, I had no clue about any of those things. I consider all that learning an enjoyable part of the tinkering a century old vehicle requires. Sometimes frustrating, sure, but nonetheless overall enjoyable.
Life is what it is. You can fight it, or you can enjoy it. So you might as well enjoy it ~ Ken Patterson
I was a newbie ten years ago when I bought my first and only Model T, a 1927 Tudor. Through the help of a handful of local friends, the forum and several manuals (everything from the official Service Manual to MTFCA specific manuals to a 1927 Dykes), I have put together something that I am proud of. I started out knowing very little about automobiles and now know a whole lot more, though am far from an expert. There is still so much I do not understand, but through every hands-on experience I gain a bit more knowledge and am able to trouble-shoot it much better.
I have spent the past ten years restoring the Tudor and now have a very reliable, dependable car - that is for a Model T. Remember, it still is 1908 technology that you are dealing with. Just by driving your car, things get out of adjustment and have to be readjusted. Little things/quirks crop up that cause frustration, but again, it is a learning process. For me, in the last month, my car has stalled while driving to work, brakelights and turn signals quit working, my steering went completely out of adjustment, and my brakes wouldn't hold on a hill.
The brake issues were due to me simply not following the proper steps for reinstalling Rocky Mountain Brakes after I had my car repainted - you can see a post from me earlier this month. For the stall, the cause was that the gas cap didn't have a breather hole. A quick call to Glen Chaffin and I had a solution as to where to drill and it gave me an excuse to purchase a press/stand for my Dremel! As to the brake and signal lights, after an hour worth of testing, I discovered that there wasn't a complete contact at the terminal block, which is was the first place I checked.
Last December, I had the entire front end powder-coated. After a summer of driving, the powder coating had worn through where the steering linkage bolted on. Now that that was fixed, it drives beautifully. I should mention that, if you search for my name on the forum, you will find several posts throughout the years asking how to solve my steering issues. The steering issue had been unsafe since I bought the car and despite the replacement of many parts (all of the caps, the pitman arm, the ball, put an APCO spring-loaded ball cap on, replaced bushings, even the entire steering gear box, which incidentally I believe was NOS, with new gears) and it still shimmied terribly over 30 mph! The cause - the axle had to have been bent, but not visibly that I, nor my Model T friends, could tell. I purchased a straight axle from Bill Bender in the fall of 2015 and all of my steering issues ceased. Mind you, I bought the car in 2006, so this was nine years of trouble-shooting before I officially solved the issue.
As far as my carburetor is concerned, I completely rebuilt my carburetor in 2009, replacing all of the parts with new parts, with the exception of the float and following the directions in the Ford Service Manual. There are many guys that hate vaporizers, but anyone who has driven my Tudor will admit that it has the best running vaporizer that they have seen.
All of the guys on the forum are here to help you out and they are right - if you don't like tinkering with stuff, perhaps you need a newer, older car. With a Model T, it is the nature of the beast.
Steve and Jim, you have eloquently stated what I did not have the guts to. Having began tinkering with T's over 35 years ago starting on a zero budget I have tried to help but have mostly stood mute. A T requires endless tinkering. That is most of their charm. No offense, TT newbie but some of this has been painful to read. The part about taking an NH to a speed shop to be rebuilt caused every sphincter muscle in my body to go into such spasms I had to take a Flexaril muscle relaxer. Most of us on here are so tight we squeek.Just the THOUGHT of getting bent over like that is more than we can bear.We are on your side. But,Jesus!
I apologize to those who have offered their advice to help me and I have offended in my frustrated rants. It was not my intent to offend.
Advice is what makes this forum work, and I have learned a great deal from reading old threads as well as talking with a local guy.
I do not mind tinkering. I modify stuff all the time. I bought a Ford Fiesta new in 2012, brought it home, removed the front passenger seat, and put a piece of plyboard in for a floor. Then a piece of old carpet to make it nice. The seat took up too much room and the headrest on it obstructed my vision. But that car is for me, so I modified it. The car is much more functional. It will now carry 10' 2X4's. A passenger has to sit in the rear seat, but they have lots of legroom.
Are you familiar with the slip=and=slide made of plastic, about 20' long, and uses cold water from the spigot. I can improve that. Mind has a starting platform 10' above the ground, a 20' ramp to the ground, then 60' of builders plastic down the hill to end in a 1/2 acre pond. The water supply is from a pump that gives 50 gal/min at 0 head of warm pond water. Five people can load on a float at the top and slide to the bottom for a big splash at the end. It is the center of summer events and has had hundreds of sliders age 2 to 70 over the years at birthday parties, baseball and softball parties, different school organization parties, family parties, etc. All designed and built by me.
I expect a lot of those people to enjoy riding in the back of TT.
I expect to use TT for fun. I like the fact that the body can be anything I make it since Ford did not make the body, just the chassis. There should be a lot of people of many ages who will ride in the back of TT next summer when we have get togethers. There are several miles of private roads in the farm behind me and the owner has invited me to drive it anytime. Part of the party will be a ride in TT, the body modified my me to function well for hayrides. And I expect TT to be mechanically reliable.
In addition to being a hayride vehicle, I expect TT to be a night cruiser. I can not safely drive her on the local roads during the day because of her speed limitations. But, between 1:00 and 4:00 in the morning there is almost no traffic, and when I finish with the LED lighting on TT no one will miss seeing her. She will be like an alien spacecraft landing. Walgreens and Walmart are less than 5 miles away and open all night. There are hundreds of miles I can cruise at night within a ten mile radius of my house. I have bought the lights, the switches including a brake light switch and turn signal indicator.
I enjoy modifying the body, designing and installing the lighting, as well as troubleshooting the engine and getting TT mechanically safe.
So please try to understand my frustration when I put a recently rebuilt carb on TT, she ran for 5 minutes, and quit. This is not due to trash in the line, there is no trash in the line and trash would force the valve open so it would leak gas, not force it closed. This is not due to ethanol in the gasoline. It was running, then the valve stuck closed. That is not due to bad gas. If it sat for a few months I could understand the valve getting stuck closed, but it was running and the new valve just decided to get stuck closed. Then I find that many people have had problems with that valve. Then I find that is the standard valve used on rebuilts from Langs. Then I find that even a new original style valve needs altering before it will work. And I can not alter it until it gets here in a few days.
I want to fix the carb and move on. I find it amazing that Model T carbs have been around for 100 years and one still can not find proper parts. I do enjoy tinkering, but I do not enjoy tinkering with something that I feel should not have to be tinkered with.
I thank those who have told me to toss the Grose and how to make an original replacement valve work. You have saved me many more hours of frustration.
"There are many mechanics and engineers who drive T's. I sure wish you guys would come up with a reliable carburetion system for T's."
You know, Henry Ford was a pretty good mechanic and engineer. Why not follow his example and return your Model T Ford to original specifications. Then compare your results.
Thomas, you didn't offend me, or I'm sure anyone else. It is I for one approach things a little differently.
Back in 'the day',whenever that was, or I should say when you could get good new needles and seats we used to replace them whether they needed it or not. The old ones still looked good, so we put them in the proverbial cigar box.Someone out there surely has a good original NH needle and seat they could spare for Thomas. A dozen or more of us could walk you through changing this. How about it?
Have you checked the float setting according to the Ford service manual?
You'll be able to haul 14' or even 16' two by fours. Dave in Bellingham, WA