Some of you have disagreed with this, but I want to thank, Burt Pierce inventor and founder of the Marvel Oil Company in 1923. I knew that he invented the Marvel Carburetor, but did not know it was standard equipment on 80% of all vehicles produced after World War I. I also did not know that vehicles of the post WWI era encountered carburetor problems, mainly clogged jets due to high lead content and other contaminants found in the gasoline of the time. I have used his product for the last 60 + years because I thought it was a top cylinder lubricant and it helped keep the values from sticking. Now I hear that using it provides other beneficial effects by creating a top ring seal, producing higher compression and, by preventing blow-by on power strokes, resulting in more power. However, I cannot say “Mystery Oil also improved gas mileage” because my Model Ts do not have odometers, but I do believe it does minimize engine wear.
Thank you for producing this great automotive product and Happy Motoring,
I have always maintained that just the name alone makes it a worthwhile product to use in a Model T.
About this time of year I have several gallons of boat gas left from the season (50:1 2cycle) and use it up in my T's at about a 5:1 ratio of gas:boat gas. It turns out to be about the same ratio as M.M.Oil would be mixed... And it makes the same faint blue smoke and same little oil drops all over the back of the car body.
Dick, Thank you for your support. Adam, thank you for your helpful comment, however I have never seen any blue smoke coming out of my tail pipe or little oil drops all over the back of the car body.
Seabiscuit as most other drivers view him!
I really like the tins it comes in!
Allan from down under.
It smells good too.
Warren, You are a brave soul. To bring up the dreaded MMO word (marvel mystery oil) I have been a fan of it for years. And like Allen, I think the can is pretty neat looking. Here is my lubricator on my speedster project.
Warren H, I like your post. Personally, I think some people get too worked up over oil (and yes, I can under the right circumstances). I have never used MMO. But I do love its "snake oil" history, and under some conditions, it WILL be beneficial.
Besides, I think that can looks great on Donnie's firewall!
So, "Shields Captain! "D--- the torpedoes!" (I like my torpedo, another era correct name for a boat-tail roadster). Besides, your post was educational, and mentioned some era facts I don't recall ever seeing before.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I love MMO as well, but I have a problem with it since it no longer comes in the metal can.
The correct amount to add to a gas tank used to be two galugs. The plastic bottles don't glug!
Warren, the only question I have is where did you come up with " it was standard equipment on 80% of all vehicles produced after World War I."? I have never seen a factory installed Marvel Mystery oiler.
No automobile manufacturer ever endorsed this stuff because there's absolutely positively with out a doubt no provable advantage to using it. Warren runs great with it. 10 million or 50 million or whatever million over the years ran great. Without it. Swear all you want you can't prove a single claim that's been posted above. Add this stuff to your modern and let your dealership know about it. Bye bye warranty. And that's a guarantee. It's thin oil with a scent. That's it fellas. And apparently it's the scent that sells it.
Marvel mystery oil has freed up at least a half-dozen old frozen engines that I have purchased. It's good stuff. I do agree with Howard Dennis though.
I JUST TRIED TO POST A MESSAGE ABOUT MYSTERY OIL, SAVE YOU TIN CAN BECAUSE THERE GOING PLASTIC. MY LAST JUG WAS PLASTIC AND I RETREVED MY TIN FROM THE TRASH AND PUT IT UP WITH THE REST OF MY KEEPERS. GREG
I was told to put a cupful in the engine oil.
That was a mistake, as it makes the bands so slick that the brake is totally useless.
Charlie B, what proof of my claim that I like the tins would you like me to provide?
Allan from down under.
I once had a car that had the accessory firewall mounted lubricator. Didn't seem to hurt anything, and with today's gas formulation, might be a little "insurance"--I had one "expert" tell me modern gas is too "dry."
But what do I know?
Whatever floats your boat ...
To each his own ...
The only time I heard of a Marvel carburetor was when a friend was looking for one for his '23 Nash.
I would believe a statement such as 80% of automakers used them after WWI on a model or two, but I think 80% of all vehicles isn't correct.
Marvel carburetors were not standard on 80% of vehicles, ever. That is someone's imagination.
Ford used Holley carburetors and Kingston carburetors, and Ford was the #1 producer of automobiles in the world. Carter and Stromberg were the next largest producers of carburetors. I am not sure what makes ever had Marvel carburetors, but they were few and far between.
If i remember right some Allis Chalmers tractors in the 50's used Marvel Schriber carbs?? Bud.
Thank you to everyone for sharing your thoughts both pro and con. I was not trying and will not recommend Marvel Mystery Oil to anyone on the forum. What I was hoping to do was share some information about a well-known product (that I like, use and have used for 60+ years) that I found very interesting. Note: the product information was from Marvel Mystery Oil’s web site, so take it for what it’s worth. Also, note: I only use it in my Model Ts fuel tank and never use it mixed with engine oil. For those of you interested in buying a used Marvel Mystery Oil can, I found several for sale on eBay. I purchased one and I am looking forward to using for many years. (A great one quart Marvel Mystery Oil Top Cylinder Lubrication can is a newer can but is in great condition. It is approximately 1/4 of the way full. The graphics are beautiful. Size: 7" tall x 4.5" wide x 2 and 3/8" deep. Condition: Great - There is some writing in marker on the top of the can and the cap appears worn. The graphics are great with only a few very small scratches and marks).
More useless product info taken from the Marvel web site: Spark plug life is also extended, by creating a cleaner burning environment reducing carbon build-up.
It must be true if you found it on a web site.
Wow - pricey..
Many cars used Marvel carbs. The two that I can think of are Buick and Hudson, although the Marvel carb manual lists at least 15 different makes.
The Marvel Carburator manual is still available in reprint.
I did not realize they were the predecessor to the lubricant.
Be the first in your neighborhood to order now from Mac's Marvel Mystery Oil - Top Cylinder Oil - 16 Oz. Bottle, Part #: 16-51308-1, Alt Part #: MARVEL Price: $6.95 ea. Low Price Guarantee, Availability: In Stock See applications below for exact details. FORD MODEL T 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927
ps: I use it in my 1957 Buick Roadmaster & 1917 Canopy Express Delivery & have used it in all my other antique vehicles. Wayne, "back in the day" when I was in high school (mid to late 50s) and bought my first car (1950 Ford convertible, which I used it in) you could go to the junk yard ( yes, that's the correct word for what now is an Auto Salvage Dealer), and buy a good running car for as little as fifty buck ( not sure what that would be in dollars).
Is this the same potion?
Twice the quantity, almost 1/2 the price at your local "big box"
Depends if you're more interested in the vintage metal cans, or the stuff inside.
Same container Chris
The point is that the ebay listings are for the old metal cans, which are no longer available, and seem to be collectible. Notice that most of those are empty. In that case, you are buying the cans.
At WalMart, or Macs, you're buying the oil. That comes in a plastic bottle that you'll end up throwing away.
I thought that Warren was extolling the virtues of the contents. Perhaps I misinterpreted his intention.
Dave, as you can see, you can get it from Mac's for the same price.
LOW PRICE GUARANTEE
MAC's Auto Parts strives to bring you the BEST QUALITY parts at the BEST PRICE! Show us the same brand part/item and style advertised in any current magazine, catalog or website and we’ll match their current retail price – simple as that!
This offer is available only at the time of purchase and applies only to stocked merchandise. This offer cannot be combined with any other offer. Tires, restoration services, kits, window glass, cores, reproduction batteries, certain engines, transmissions, used parts, special order parts, and shipping and handling charges are excluded. Please have the following information:
MAC's Auto Parts part number
MAC's Auto Parts description
Competitor (Company where you found this price)
Competitor part number (if available)
Chris, great to hear from you. Hope you made it home before the weather last Sunday turned cold. Not sure what you meant by "Depends if you're more interested in the vintage metal cans, or the stuff inside". Personally I like them both.
Yes Warren, I did see that.
But why bother to go thru all that effort...sending all that information to Mac's (hoping that they will honor their guarantee), PLUS pay their shipping and handling charge), when I can stop at Wal--M--t and get a $.58 Boston creme donut and buy the liquid cheaper without all the hassle?
Maybe stop at Sam's while I'm up there and get a slice of pizza after I fill up with their cheap gas.
I'd rather buy it there and save a dime or two to spend at Lang's.
(Message edited by adave on October 28, 2016)
I love it when this conversation comes up. It always gets me in the mood for some scientifical research.
I worked for a private collector one summer who collected American cars from the 1920s to the 1960s. He ran 100 octane gasoline in his cars, mixed 55 gallons of fuel to one gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil. Every one of them ran great. That summer we drove one of his cars, a 1940 Buick Century, from Chicago to Kearney Nebraska and back.
Depending on the car, I'd say MMO isn't going to hurt anything. Especially in a Model T. Octane ratings were lower back in the 1920s, so anyone who complains of diluting the fuel by adding MMO forgets that there's more octane value in today's gasoline than there was when these cars were built. If you're running a stock Model T, it's already better fuel than when it was new.
Whether or not the MMO, or any other fuel additive, is causing any improvement in performance has yet to be quantifiably tested. I'd like to find a way to do so, just for my peace of mind. That, and it sounds like a good excuse to drive my T a lot.
As for the carburetors, I know there are a lot of farm tractors that used Marvel carburetors. I would like to do some research and find out if it's all the same company, as I suspect it is.
yesterday I treated all of my diesel equipment to a dose of MMO as I do every year for winter storage. When I had airplanes I learned that the planes towing banners on the beaches in the south used MMO.
So a dose in my 15 will not hurt...and for those of you that say it's a waste of money...I have it to spend, as I learned early in life to work 7 days a week to earn what I have
I agree with what both Jared and Greg said. "Especially in a Model T. Octane ratings were lower back in the 1920s", plus I always heard that the lead in the gasoline was to lubricate the valves and I believe that's what MMO helps with. "So a dose in my 15 will not hurt...and for those of you that say it's a waste of money", as far as that goes it's our money. I would appreciate if someone knows for a fact if it is accurate (the lead in the gas was to keep the valves from sticking) would comment.
Years ago I had a 1979 olds 98 Regency with a 350 engine that was blowing blue smoke, I put a quart of MMO in and it completely stopped the oil burning. I assumed it softened the valve seals, upper cylinder head lubrication is what it says on the can. However it never worked again in any vehicle I tried it in. Maybe when it was in the metal can is when it worked
Tetraethyl lead (hence the "Ethyl" trademark on gas pumps back when) was initially added to gasoline to eliminate pre-ignition, or "octane ping". As newer cars came out with increasingly higher compression ratios, this became an issue.
An added "benefit" was that combustion produced lead halides, a sort of "soot" if you will, which coated valves and valve seats. This, you might say, "lubricated" that interface, because when lead compounds were removed from gasoline, valve failures began to appear. In engines where a high volume of hot gasses heated valves and seats to extreme temperatures, valves would microscopically "weld" to the seats, and molecules of seat material would pull away when the valve opened. The valve then became something of a rotary tool, further damaging the seat and finally ruining the seal to the point where an engine thus afflicted would not run well at all. Lead halides, a combustion by-product prevented this from happening.
The modern "cure" for that is to use stainless valves and install stellite (hard) seats. Curiously, it's not the "muscle cars" that suffer most from the lack of lead, but cars with more modest HP to weight ratios and engine compressions of 7:1 and higher. A low compression Model T was "born" long before "Ethyl" was invented, and won't miss it now.
As for MMO being a "valve top oiler" and a cure for the lack of lead in gas, I rather doubt it . . . but if you have one of those engine top-oilers, it's pretty nifty to see the MMO percolating into the intake manifold through that sight-gauge on the oiler unit !
Rich, if you have a photo of the engine top oiler, I would love to see it. I'm going to search the web to see if I can buy one, but for now it's very easy just to add it to the fuel tank each time I filler up. Doug, I did find one of those metal cans on eBay and bought it, when I get it I hope it looks as good as it did in their photos.
Warren, The pic I posted above of my MMO can on the speedster project firewall is an oiler. The thing in the top of the can in place of the cap has a pickup tube that goes down inside the can. There is a threaded hole in the side of the "knurled part of the cap. I do not have it attached in the photo but there is a fitting that screws into the threaded opening in the knurled part. That fitting has a small needle valve that you open or close to allow more or less MMO oil to be sucked into the intake manifold thru a 1/8 inch steel tube, attached between the valve and the intake. There are other styles of oilers. Some have glass jars, others have sight gauges, ect. You can do an e-bay search of "upper cylinder lubricator" without the quotation marks. The different styles show up fairly regular...
Warren, here's a picture of an MMO oiler on my Hudson. I don't know if the stuff helps but it uses it up. There is a sight glass and an adjuster so you can regulate how much it uses.
I haven't bought MMO in a metal can for YEARS.
I'll say this again: ANYTHING that contributes to upper cylinder lubrication is a good thing.
Craig, I agree that's what makes it sound so good for an engine
I started the last MMO thread and it was a record 106 postings long! Just remember, this time, I DIDN'T DO IT. That said, I run MMO in my T every single day and have for years. Great stuff.
I would think almost everyone uses modern oil instead of motor tar,so is it any help to the engine?? With modern thinking is a blue haze coming from a old car a help to the hobby?? Bud in the semi.
Corey, was the MMO oiler on your Hudson an aftermarket product or did Hudson install it at the factory (Hudson did build very fine cars, my brother had a'40, 4dr sedan back in 1956 and I changed the wet clutch for him, but that's another story)? I agree with Craig & Doug. Come-on Dave by brave take some credit. I didn't start this tread to start trouble, if go back and read it, I only wanted to share some information that I found interesting.
I did a web search and found this engine oilier, but still think it is best just to add it to the gas at fill-ups
Hudson, like all manufacturers, did not supply any Marvel Mystery oil dispensers, and also like all other manufacturers they did not recommend its use. Complete nonsense, only suitable for the extremely gullible.
The MSDS on this product lists 3 items:
Chlorinated Hydrocarbons &
Now prove to me that dumping crude oil by products mixed with paint thinner in you engine or fuel is prolonging your engine life and not going straight out the tail pipe or into a waste oil container when you change your oil? Why does it improve valve or ring lubing since it's thinner than the recommended engine oil? Listen to yourselves guys. you're talkin' total bunk but most have spent their $ for years and will defend that to the end. Bottom line: folks that don't use it don't have the problems described either.
Charlie has given the best argument so far against using the stuff. I've never used the stuff in my vehicle personally, but I plan on trying it someday to see the results firsthand.
While nobody has been able to prove, quantifiably or reliably, that it makes a difference in engine performance, nobody has proven that it is harmful either. It seems to me there are three camps when it comes to this stuff. They are:
1: I've used it for years and it works.
2: I've never used it but I'm curious as to what it does.
3: I've never used it and I never will because it's just snake oil and anybody who uses it is gullible and stupid and just a terrible person.
I may have exaggerated that last part, but that's how it comes across when I see posts from people in group #3.
As for the "waste of money" argument, simple arithmetic can shut it down easily. A quart of the stuff will run you around $4.00 at Walmart. According to the MMO website, they recommend four ounces per ten gallons of gasoline. So if you have a ten gallon tank, as many T's do, you're getting eight tanks worth of MMO in one bottle, at a cost of fifty cents per fill up. Depending on how much you use your car and the volatility in the oil market on a given day, you could end up spending that much just on the difference in gas prices from one fill up to the next. So the "waste of money" argument only applies to the truly stingy among us. If you can't afford an extra fifty cents per fill up, you probably have bigger problems than whether or not MMO is helping your engine or not.
Sorry for the long rant, but it seems every time this topic comes up it degenerates into another one of those "I'm right and you're wrong" things. Not everyone jumps to one side of the line or the other, but the ones that do are fierce in the defense of their position. Can't we all just agree to disagree and leave it at that? With all the other divisive things going on in the world today, we can't afford to argue over MMO as well.
Thanks for that Jared,
"blessed are the peacemakers . . . "
After all we're all friends here, ain't we ?
Bud, at a mix of 4oz to 10 gallons, you should not see a blue haze.
Charlie, two stroke engines are lubricated by oil mixed into the gas. Mixing an oil or oily substance such as MMO in the gas of a four stroke will lube areas that crankcase oil may not reach such as the part of the valve stem that is in the port. This is also where contaminates and "gunk" build up on the valve stem. There are several products on the market to reduce this as well as gasoline refiners who claim that their own additives reduce or eliminate this buildup.
Now for my experience and "imaginary proof" that it might work. I had a GMC van with the 4.3 V6 engine. These particular vans had a fuel injection system that was notoriously bad and GM revised it several times. While under warranty, I took it in to the dealer several times with a "check engine" light on, and each time the code was for "multiple random misfires" never attributed to any individual cylinder. They replaced the injectors at least four times for this problem.
Finally at nearly 60,000 miles and with the warranty about to expire, I took it in again with the same problem. The "check engine" light would come on whenever it was under hard acceleration such as entering a highway. Always "multiple random misfires." Dealer said I needed injectors again, but it was still under warranty so it was OK, but I also needed a fuel system cleaning, (so they could charge me something.) One half block from the dealer, the light came back on, so back I went. Well they had eliminated the fuel system, so they said I needed a distributor cap and rotor and spark plugs -OK do it. One half block away, the light was on again. This time it was plug wires -do it. One half block away, light is on again! This is all in one day! This time they produced a "service bulletin" stating that on some 4.3 and 5.7 engines the valve guides were too tight, and the solution was to remove the heads and do a valve job, but this was not covered under warranty. I was also warned that doing only a valve job on an "old engine" could "open up a can of worms" and I should really consider replacing the engine for nearly $6000. I told the service writer that my valve guides should be getting looser with age and wear, not tighter!
I went home and thought about it and bought a very expensive two-part additive, one for the oil, and one for the gas. It greatly reduced the instances of the light coming on, but over time, and no more additive, it began to come on regularly again. I decided to use an additive again, but not so expensive this time. There are several different ones available, I happened to choose MMO.
I put another 100,000 miles on the van, and adding MMO to the gas greatly reduced (almost eliminated) the "multiple random misfires." When I would run out of MMO and run several tanks of straight gas, the light would begin coming on more often, and when I would resume the treatment, the instances would decrease, and there was never any smell or blue haze. It worked! It was doing something, whether it was lubricating, or reducing gunky buildup, it was doing something.
Like I said, there are numerous products on the market that might have done the same thing, I happened to choose Marvel Mystery Oil.
As soon as you quote the MMO web site you are in the world of pure fiction. For example, they state that 80% of cars were once equipped with Marvel carburetors. You have to completely suspend all knowledge to believe any of the statements there.
2 cycle engines obviously aren't 4 cycle engines. If there were moving parts on a 4 cycle that didn't get proper lubrication they'd fry. Doesn't happen. Without additives. As to Jeff's problem: You need to explain how any additive could clean or make a set of brand new factory fuel injector's work better. The dealer couldn't cure it but mmo did? You think if they knew that they'd have recommended it? The fact is if you started using it sooner and mentioned it at the dealership you'd have done them a favor because they would have voided your warranty on the spot.
Well I took the time yesterday to try my hand on adding to the MMO write up and I was doing some correcting and erased the write up. My write up was about my late Uncle.
Uncle George worked for Nueman and Fox a Ford Dealer at the corner of 30th and McGee in KcMO. He was one of their top body and fender men. In 1949 He bought a brand new 4dr sedan (1949) and drove it off the sales lot to the shop and had a MMO oiler installed. I happened to be in KCMO at the time when his car had about 50 thousand miles on it. For some reason he and his buddy Sparky Davis were going to pull the heads and de- carbonize the heads and pistons, why I don't know!. In doing so they measured the wear in the top of the cylinders and to their surprise there was a tiny, tiny bit, almost not able to measure it. From that time on HE swore by the MMO oiler.
I had the chance to get one of the oiler's with the glass container, and I used it till I blew the engine.
So in retrospect I guess they do there job if maintained like they should be.
Can they still be purchased and how would they work on fuel injected engines. By golly maybe I should install on m,y two Mode lT's!!!!!
On slightly more modern Internet forums you can check a box under a poster's name that will block them so that you never see anything they post. That would be a highly beneficial feature here.
I really don't think anyone posted to cause trouble with the exception of the post about blocking peoples post by name.I know i ask a lot of dumb questions but often i learn by it.Thank you Seth,I learned more than i can express!!! Bud out of the semi.
Charlie you missed the point! The injectors weren't the problem, the spark plugs weren't the problem, the cap, rotor, and wires weren't the problem! THEY ACTUALLY TRIED TO SELL ME A WHOLE NEW ENGINE!
I tried an additive in the gas. It happened to be MMO, but could have been any one of the dozens of additives available. It reduced the instances of "multiple random misfires" attributed to tight valve guides to almost never, and I drove the "bad"engine another 100,000 miles!
Actually you missed my point. Something from the factory WAS the problem. Had to be or you wouldn't have had a problem to begin with. Obviously what they changed didn't correct it. In fact it sounds more like an electrical/computer/wiring problem to me.They couldn't/wouldn't repair it so the next natural progression for a dealership is: since he's almost done run him out of the warranty and try to get some $ out of him because one way or the other he's not coming back. I certainly am not buying anything about tight valve guides. Sticking valves pop back thru the intake or exhaust. All you're talking about is an engine light and it appears, since you never mentioned it, you noticed no power loss or backfiring, Just a light indicating a problem.
By the way: I Googled your problem and looked at a number of sites. The most common problems associated with a check engine light/multiple random misfire codes on the 4.3L V-6 are as follows:
1: Injector harness open or shorted
2: Injector circuit poor contacts
3: Ignition coil circuit contacts/connectors
4: Fuel pump pressure
5: fuel pressure regulator.
None of these things could possibly be affected by a fuel additive.
The light was indicating misfire! obviously it ran rough.
Document ID# 1539013 -2000 GMC Truck Safari 2WD
SES Light and P0300 When Towing, Cruising Uphill or on Hard Acceleration -kw 4.3 5.0 5.7 accelerate cruise cylinder head DTC L30 L31 L35 LF6 LU3 P0300 P0301 P0302 P0303 P0304 P0305 P0306 P0307 P0308 #PIP3081 -(Jul 23, 2004)
SES Light and P0300 when Towing, Cruising Uphill, or on Hard Acceleration
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom described in the PI.
The vehicle may exhibit a SES Light due to a P0300 and misfire. If the misfire is related to the information below, it will typically happen while cruising uphill, pulling a trailer, or on hard acceleration and then stop misfiring shortly after returning to idle. Typically, cylinders 3,4,5,or 6 will be the ones to experience this.
If the P0300 SI diagnostics did not isolate a concern, the following may help:
Remove the valve cover, valve springs and valve seals on the effected cylinder or cylinders. A small wire tie or rubber bands can be placed in the valve stem keeper groove to prevent the valve from falling into the cylinder. Rotate the valve while moving it up and down in the guide to see if it binds. If a binding valve is found, remove both cylinder heads and use either of the following methods to increase the stem to guide clearance:
Send the head out to a machine shop and advise them to increase the valve stem to guide clearance to 0.002 inch per guide.
Hone the guide with a 9mm hone such as a Snap On BCG249 until a clearance of 0.002 inch is obtained. This will usually take about 4 strokes of the hone.
Reassemble the cylinder heads using new valve seals.
Please follow this diagnosis process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed. If these steps do not resolve the condition, please contact GM TAC for further diagnostic assistance.
(96-02 Chevrolet Astro) and 96-02 GMC Safari) and 96-00 Old Body Style Chevrolet Suburban) and (96-00 Old Body Style Chevrolet Tahoe) and (96-02 Chevrolet Express) and 96-00 GMC Yukon) and (96-00 Chevrolet Old Body Style C/K Truck) and 96-00 GMC Old Body Style C/K Truck) and (96-02 GMC Savana) and (96-99 P32 Cab and Chassis) and (96-02 Chevrolet S-10) and (99-02 Chevrolet Silverado with 4.3L V-6 Engines) and (96-02 GMC Sonoma) and 96-02 GMC Sierra with 4.3L V-6 Engines)
Royce, I was simply quoting the manufacturer's recommended usage for the purpose of breaking down the cost per use. Obviously, if you ignore their directions and use zero ounces per ten gallons, it doesn't matter. I was just trying to make a point. If you're using this product as the manufacturer directs, the cost is approximately X.
The statement about the use of their carburetors can be factually proved or disproved with a bit of research. But just because one "fact" on their website is false, I'm supposed to disregard the directions that they have written on the proper way to use their product? It seems to me that if anybody knows how to use this stuff, it's the people who make it.
I didn't read the entire website, but nowhere on there did I see anything about how you have to use it. Everything I read basically said "Our product will do this IF you use it." Ultimately it's up to each one of us to do our own due diligence and make our own choice as to whether or not to use it. Until you can prove definitively that it doesn't work, I don't think you're going to convince anyone not to use it just by saying "it's all hogwash and you can't believe anything they say."
I hope this doesn't come across as a personal attack. I'm just trying to explain my reasoning for what I've stated. If you have any evidence that MMO is actually damaging to engines, I'd be happy to read it.
I find this all really funny. The title of this thread did not mention MMO, so that's not what made people have a look. It said, "Some of you have disagreed with this", appealing to those who need to disagree with things and promising something to possibly disagree with. It seems there has been no shortage of disagreement, nor of disagreeable people! Excellent.
(So, why did I look? Hmmm...)
I apologize to everyone, as it was not intent to cause anyone undue harm or stress and I highly recommend to all those who choose to not use MMO to save your money and never use this product.
Hope everyone has a great day, while I'm out enjoying a drive in one of my antique vehicles,
1917 Canopy Express Delivery
Jared your second posting is quite concise. What harm can come in putting a thin oil into an engine in the minute quantities recommended? The real question is what provable good does it do? The answer is it can't be proven. As for adding it to fuel, again in minute quantities, it goes out the tail pipe. Or if you over do it there, 'cause more is better right?, it goes out the pipe and smokes. I'd like to address the tight valve guide business once more as my (admittedly limited to about 6 sites) investigation doesn't mention it as a cure. Tight guides so sticking valves right? Bent push rods or popping back through the intake or exhaust. Yes/no?
I don't know what comment you think I directed towards you. I don't believe any of my comments were directed at anyone in particular, just the subject in general of silly things that humans can be led to believe by hucksters.
When I got my 42 GPW L134 engine back from the rebuilder, he suggested to run a couple of "glugs" of MMO in the first few tanks of gas and then wean off it.
I have, and he gave no technical explaination or reasons for it, but he did the engine and he guarantees his work, so I did what he suggested. Of course, we al run "clean" gas in our jeeps to keep the ethynol from turning to glue in the fuel system, and I plan on doing the same when I get my T ready for it's first start up and run. Clean gas with a couple of "glugs" of MMO. Will it help? Help what? But, it won't hurt.
Bob: he recommended it & he guarantees his work so if I was in your shoes I'd have done the same thing just in case the stuff hit the fan and he asked me if I did as he recommended. It's also the only reason I'd have done it.
I haven't tried using MMO in my T's engine, but it keeps the water pump quiet! This thread is really getting old (big yawn). Off to a better thread, maybe another one on water pumps or distributors...
How would one do the definitive MMO test on a Model T? Two identical, freshly restored power units run side by side at exactly the same RPM for the same thousand (?) hours? Tear down, inspect, measure everything and see if there's a difference. Is that how this topic could finally be put to bed?
"Is that how this topic could finally be put to bed?"
No. That will never happen.
Um,See shiny object must have!! I think it's all in the packaging and hype! Somewhere i have some bought 20 plus years ago because someone said it was great for my first model T,and the can was shiny!! Bud where it will be to warm to haul beets tuseday!
At one point in the late fifties I bought and installed a Judson supercharger kit on my dad's VW Beetle. The kit came with an MMO oiler and a can of oil. If I remember the literature correctly, that came with it, the oiler would dispense more oil when the engine was under heavier load, and less under lighter load.
We didn't keep the Judson for long, as the increased torque caused clutch slip, and I wasn't prepared to do a clutch swap.
No discernable popping back. See GM bulletin above. Happens at cruising speed under load (uphill or towing,) or hard acceleration, goes away at idle. May set any number of codes including ones attributable to certain cylinders (P0301, P0302, etc.) or as in my case P0300, multiple random misfires which cannot be pinned to any one cylinder. GM cure was basically a valve job which I chose not to do.
Roar Sand, am I understanding you correctly, that you did not keep the Judson long because it caused "the increased torque caused clutch slip" and that had something to do with the MMO oil.
"As soon as you quote the MMO web site you are in the world of pure fiction. For example, they state that 80% of cars were once equipped with Marvel carburetors. You have to completely suspend all knowledge to believe any of the statements there."
Royce, I took this to be aimed at me as I was the last one to quote the website before you posted it. I'm sorry that I mistook your intent.
Tim E, that would be the only way to come up with some measurable and empirical evidence. But who has the budget or the time to do such a test? Nobody, that's who. But it would be an interesting test.
Jerry, This is an interesting thread to be sure. Come for the mystery, stay for chasing tails in what can loosely be called a debate.
Inexpensive "test" - perhaps only an observation:
small engine - on the woodsplitter - use it infrequently - sometimes drain the gas, sometimes not. If tank emptied for 4-5 months, when adding fresh gas, carb leaks...float or needle stuck? A gentle whack with a small piece of wood stops the leak - sometimes. Has happened for years.
Last year - maybe 2-3 years ago (my, how time flies after one passes the 1/2 century mark) - someone extolled the virtues of MMO. I was tired of taking the carb apart and cleaning the innards, and was afraid that someday I'd whack the carb too hard and break something, so I took the plunge and bought a plastic bottle of the red elixir. Put a "shot" or two in the approximate quart sized gas tank.
Fixed the leak, and surprise, surprise, the engine no longer "surges" or "hunts".
The stuff works for me
After that (those) experience(s) I use it all the time in all my small and old engines -(add it to the gas in the T, too). I don't use tobacco anymore, so saving $$ on that evil allows me plenty of change for the red stuff - AND some ice cream too!
As JR would write: "...your mileage may vary."
Be well all.
I guess there's no such thing as a placebo, as long as you feel better afterwards.
Warren - that was my car in the picture. I filled that in 2008 just before the centennial party in Indiana, put thousands of miles on it - and then took that picture. The stuff lasts if you adjust it right and no smoke.
For those that want one, I am hosting a giveaway for a steel one. www.tfoye.com for details. Yes - it's free, no - there are no strings attached. I'm just trying to promote my new website and the hobby.
If you want a glass, plastic, or metal one I still have a few left in inventory. PM or email me. I've put one on every car I have had and a bunch of customers cars as well.
Dave, you and I have been duped. Just read what the others have posted, it can not possibly have worked. They don't use it, won't use it, never have, never will, but know for a fact that it can't possibly do anything except smoke. The sweet vapors of the magic red elixir have caused us to hallucinate. We only dream that it has worked for us.
I have known Dave Dufault for many years and always found him to be completely truthful and a straight shooter, so if he says it works, it must work.
Tim, which picture are you talking about? I went to your very nice web site and subscribed.
Here is my YouTube site; https://www.youtube.com/user/warrenh49
I will pm you about a glass one
The picture of the green thunderbolt. That was taken in Indiana I believe. I had to throw the residential plumbing on there the day before we left because it kept freezing up.
I am sure the MMO was the cause of the massive torque increase, and that the Judson supercharger was a minor factor, - NOT!
My point, rather, was that the people in Conshohocken, PA, that's where the Judson was made, must have had some faith in the MMO and their oiler.
Roar, thank you for clearing that up. I didn't think that the MMO oiler would/could cause a massive torque increase, even though they clam it help seal top rings and increases cylinder compression.
Hey look at the MMO oiler on my four door sedan - that would go all day at 65mph.
MMO is the only oil or fuel additive approved by the FAA for air cooled reciprocating aircraft engines
Drink MMO and YOU will go very fast!
Fred, I would like to be able to say the same nice things about you as I said about fellow club member Dave, but now I'm not completely sure I can do that.
That is a popular old wives tale. The FAA does not and has not. Several accidents, at least one fatal are associated with using unapproved MMO in an aircraft.
OMG! is this still going on???
Planning on picking up this MMO oilier today!
Looks like a great engine, maybe I should try to buy that as well, just saying.
Warren - you are not getting that exact oiler. I'm selling you a brand new in the box NOS one just like it! And if you want an engine like that one (or better) - I can build one for you.
As for the Centennial T Party - Some of my photos are back up for you all to see.
Tim, thanks for asking, it's a very nice and I presume a powerful engine (can you give me the specifications) , but I would have to sell my Big Beautiful Buick to afford it.
Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON
"How would one do the definitive MMO test on a Model T? Two identical, freshly restored power units run side by side at exactly the same RPM for the same thousand (?) hours? Tear down, inspect, measure everything and see if there's a difference. Is that how this topic could finally be put to bed?"
Here is what I plan for my definitive test, I will clean these valves and then install them in one of my Ts (with my new MMO oilier installed) and drive with them for the season, after which I will take them out and recheck their condition, does this sound like a good test?
old valves from barn find motor
ps: Tim, during the summers in the early 70s I was working at the Bobby Orr-Mike Walton Sports Camp in Orillia, ON and Bobby invited my family and me to visit him at the house he had built for his Mom & Dad in Parry Sound.
For the thread that will not die, here's some MMO trivia:
Several years back I bought a couple of pneumatic tools. They came with a can of "Marvel Air Tool Oil" . . . different label (very plain and boring) than MMO, but the reference info was the same as MMO. It looks the same (lovely ruby-red) and smells the same.
Directions are to drench the intakes of the air tools with it when putting them away, and / or lube them with it every so many hours (I forget the interval).
More positive testimonial, I've used it successfully in a pinch for a cutting oil with taps and dies, and last night, put a couple of drops on the crank handle of my '13 runabout as it was a little balky to push in and engage the crank pin.
Warren - caution when using old two piece valves..
They have a bad reputation of breaking at inconvenient times, making unwanted holes in heads and pistons..
They worked just fine when new 90+ years ago, but today corrosion may have made some damage where the head meets the shaft, giving a good start for metal fatigue - and MMO won't help reversing that process. If you find someone who repairs small block Chxxies, he will probably sell you some usable exhaust valves cheap that'll fit with just some reaming
Thank you Rich, for sharing your MMO testimonial and a big Thank you to Roger (what are those 2 guys doing under the back of that car, trying to lift it off the third guy?), for sharing your very helpful advice, your point is well taken.
Just an FYI, the 1928 through 1931 Oldsmobiles came with Marvel-Schebler carbs from the factory. Just adding to the list.
Both of my T's have water pumps too......so THERE.......
Thank you Doug & Craig, for adding this information to our discussion ( my wife’s favorite movie is "The NeverEnding Story", this has become my "NeverEnding Story".
Here are some more interesting facts about the Marvel Schebler History Timeline:
In 1905 the Wheeler-Schebler company was formed.
In 1908 the Marvel Carburetor Company was formed and J. R. Francis backed Pierce’s design.
This design was used heavily by General Motors, also formed in 1908.
Additional Wheeler-Schebler production facilities were built in 1911.
Schebler sold his stake in the company and the Marvel company moved to Flint, MI in 1912.
By 1928 the company was known as the Marvel-Schebler Carburetor Co. and one of the founding companies of the Borg Warner Corporation eventually becoming the Marvel-Schebler®/Tillotson Division. It was comprised of 4 companies. In addition, the Marvel-Schebler Company was producing 6,000 carburetors a day! Pierce soon after sold his stake in Marvel, became a consultant. In addition to his other accomplishments he developed Marvel Mystery Oil.
Borg-Warner designated the Marvel-Schebler Division in 1934. Marvel-Schebler moved to Decatur, Illinois in 1948 and opened a new plant in 1950.
Facet Aerospace Products Co. purchased the company from Borg Warner in 1982, in April of 1983 the Decatur plant closed.
Facet sold the Marvel-Schebler® product line to Zenith Fuel systems in 1990.
Precision Airmotive Corporation bought the aviation carburetor line from Zeinth in 1990.
In March of 2008 Volare, bought the MSA carburetor line assets from Precision Airmotive LLC. March 2008, MSA carburetors and OEM replacement parts began being marketed under the TEMPEST® Plus Marketing Group.
In August of 2010, Volare Carburetors LLC acquired the Marvel-Schebler® trademark.
In 2010, TEMPEST announced that the manufacturer formerly known as Volare Carburetors LLC is now Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors LLC; marketing efforts to remain under the TEMPEST brand.
Effective March 1, 2011 Marvel-Schebler Aircraft Carburetors LLC began marketing its Marvel-Schebler® OEM line of carburetors and replacement parts.
Ford 8N 2N 9N Carburetor Marvel Schebler 8N9510C 9N9510A
Oh that little carb looks familiar !
Look what I got in the mail today from my new friends at Turtle Wax! Just because I use their products and posted on their web site! Now I have something to put in my new (NOS) Marvel Mystery Oil oilier.
Gifts from my friends at Turtle Wax
Royce, I worked in experimental aircraft most of my life as an illustrator and tech writer publishing owners manuals, parts books and maintenance manuals as well as top drawings in trimetric and perspective. I distinctly remember when we got an STC for adding a Winslow oil filter on a Piper Comanche that operated off of a dirt field on Santa Rosa Island. Winslow said to run a little MMO in the lubricating oil, that was back in 1963.
Also the FBO in Yucca Valley put it in all of the airplanes on that field and none of them crashed. He said that he did so because of the dust that continuously blew on the 3700 foot long field. Mrs. Luscombe lived there and owned one of the few all metal four passenger Sedans with a Lycoming engine in it. Most Luscombes had Continentals and some early ones had Warner radials. We put MMO in the Cessna and Pipers I flew and I didn't crash.
Thank you for correcting me as you usually do. The FBO told me that the FAA approved MMO and you said they didn't and you are right but the FAA does not prohibit its use in aircraft engines. So when the FBO told me it was approved by the FAA he was wrong but I believed him.
The military used it in WWII and added it to radial engine sumps just before oil changes, They purchased it in 55 gallon drums, FAA be damned.
Below is the GAFHAWK 125 a single engined freighter with a 70 foot wing span and no ailerons. Turns and bank were accomplished by singularly operated spoilers mounted on top of the wings. They were necessary because the flaps went from the wing root all the way to the tips. Landing speed was 44 miles an hour fully loaded. It could carry several thousand pounds of hashish from undeveloped plowed fields and take off in 1600 feet. Uncle Sugar didn't like it at all. Oh what fun, it took a year to complete the books and they bought me a Corvette and taught me to fly. I produced the flight manuals, the parts books and the maintenance manuals. We didn't use MMO because it was powered by a P&W PT6 turbo-prop. I took a Sabbatical from the college where I was a Dean just to have a change of pace from the rat race.
Frank Harris, thank you for your very informative post. You have given me another reason to use MMO, "We put MMO in the Cessna and Pipers I flew and I didn't crash." It will help prevent crashes!
This T didn't use MMO