Please excuse the query if this is a dead horse that's been flogged 'til everyone's bored - I can't seem to get much satisfaction from "search".
What kinds of band lining do you use ? Why ? What's best ? The only thing I'm familiar with is "Scandinavia" - my beast is coming to me with wood (wood ?!?) linings . . . what's Kevlar, anyhow ??
Thanks for your opinions !
The best band linings are no longer being manufactured. That's why in the past 20 years I have bought every set of original Ford, Montgomery Wards and Western Auto bands that are for sale.
Kevlar bands work great but they also cause a lot of wear. The old asbestos bands combine excellent performance with long life.
Rich, never fear about asking questions here, that's what this forum is all about. There will be varying opinions of course on what to use, and I'm sure all of them are probably right, because it seems to be what actually feels best for the individual owner. I use Kevlar which some here love and some hate, but i feel if adjusted properly you will not have any adverse effects, with many happy T miles in your future.
Some folks swear by the wood bands. If the bands work well, no need to change them!
Yes, the "Scandinavia" bands that are made now apparently aren't anything as good as the old ones, the cloth is not woven as tight and the coating isn't the same either.
I have been using the Wards linings for years. As long as they are not rotted they seem to work fine. I know guys that have used the bonded type for years, I know guys that use the Kevlar and they are happy with them and I know one that used the wood, after a bit of wear in and getting use to them they too have been fine. When my stock of Wards type is gone I will probably go to wood.
Hows the for a spectrum of different types?
I wood ( ) not be so fast in changing your wood bands until you try them out first. If it isn't broke don't fix it.
I like wood. I would probably like original Scandinavia but never tried em. Don't see the need for Kevlar. Their claim to fame is that they practically never wear out and seldom, if ever, need adjusting. If you drive right, wood and I suspect Scandinavia, last a long time and seldom need adjustment. To me, the Kevlar advantage doesn't outweigh the risk. The way I see it, if your driving habits are such that you feel you NEED Kevlar, then you probably ought to steer clear of it.
Even though I rebuilt a Model T engine and transmission in the early 1980's and of course have experience with replacing band material I had never heard of wood being used for T bands until I found this forum.
So, I have some questions; What kind of wood? How is the wood cut from the tree/log/plank? Are wood bands available now? NOS? If you bought a T new in say 1925 did you have a choice between wood and asbestos when you went to your Ford dealer for replacements? Did Ford use wood bands in production? Were they longer lasting?
Please enlighten me and add anything related I didn't know to ask about.
This post with several T owners using original Scandinavia, Wards, Sears bands goes to show that if the original style linings were being made they probably would sell.
Recently a vendor started making a good New Day timer being made again with good materials.
This could happen with good band linings also.
With the technology we have today this could be done. Maybe someday. Unfortunately it always comes down to money.
Rich & All:
Just reordered two sets of wood bands from Jim Guinn. He is the manufacturer and I prefer to order directly. Website : http://www.guinnbands.com/.
Jim & his wife Bea are great car people and are very helpful with questions.
P>S> : Any band material will wear.... if it doesn't, the drum will wear. What would you prefer ??? to replace linings or drums ??
I've used wood liners for at least 15 years and prefer over any other. also, used accessory strainer under inspection door to catch anything that shouldn't be circulating in the oil.
Back ‘in the day’ there were weaving machines specifically made for that width of woven fabric, as others point out the weave was fairly tight, and as part of their manufacture they were impregnated with ‘stuff’ as part of the process line. A lot of that ‘stuff’ contained asbestos which was in the era one of the greatest materials going for a whole bunch of things. I wasn’t around, but since there is not a lot of ‘mine is better’ from the era in advertising, they were probably all pretty much equal.
When I bought the ’25 it came with brown woven bands and they lasted a long time. I replaced them with the original type Scandia and they are still in there!
The ’26 Coupe was converted to Kevlar, the bright yellow Kevlar maybe 15-18 years ago. I knew of all of the Kevlar ‘foibles’ and heeded the advice of the time. Leave them almost ridiculously loose on install…keep the band totally round and not twisted eggy during installation….and walk the bands in ½ turn at a time or 1 turn at a time until it feels like it behaves. Since buttoning up the lid the last ‘tweak’, there has been flawless performance. FWIW the Kevlar has some 8% more friction factor which generates 8% more heat, which really suggests a Kevlar user pump the pedals a bit to let the heat transfer to the oil. Would I use Kevlar again? Let’s just say I would have no reservations about using Kevlar.
The ’15 was changed to wood a few years ago and that was the simplest band change v. further adjustment I have ever experienced other than having to get the hogs head off. I’ll admit, I cheated…I have always been a believer in true round bands, as an eggy band just destroys every other attention to detail you can bring. When I went to wood, Jim Guinn (wood band guy) offered his linings pre-mounted on mandrel trued steel bands for not too much more than the bands themselves. I bought them pre-done and they are in the car perfectly round. No chirp for me, but I have worked on a car that had a chirp in low (chatter of stick/slip until bites) and I was able to tune that out without a whole lot of fuss. I’d like to blame that one on the owner tossing some ATF into his oil routinely, but I really don’t know.
The ’19 has original Scandia in it with a set of woods waiting on the shelf. The Scandia seemed near the end of its useful life 2 years ago, but also seems to be at the same point in its life today…so it will be watched and it will be replaced with wood.
My suggestion would be that a ‘newbie’ just not try Kevlar out of the box and self-learn on the first set. Great stuff I think, does as advertised, needs a whole lot of attention to detail in setting up, needs a bit of attention in learning second nature driving…but get it wrong or have bad operating practices like ride a brake or feather for long time low going to high, and you apparently bring out the worst in drum cracks. I think for most who say ‘Yea Kevlar!’ it was also NOT their first rodeo!
Keep the bands round no matter what the decision on choice, adjust them right in the beginning by walking them in slowly, drive the way intended and you will forget what is inside the transmission.
By way of example, when Bob Jablonski and I did the bands for National Park Service on Tom Edison T at West Orange NJ we went WOOD with existing steel hoops. The day was a bit of Punch and Judy with back and forth on how round was round, how best to make an existing band round, how best to set rivets in wood, how best to soak them…or not, but in the end we both agreed (read promised ourselves) that we were going to do a thru the tranny door change, and no matter what it took we were NOT going to stretch or yank on the hoop getting them in! First 2 went easy…last one took near 2 hours because there is one way and one way only to clear a boss on a pedal shaft and without a big yank and tug to try and have tension force self-align getting past the boss…you go nuts. We tag teamed with a bunch of nice words muttered, but finally it just dropped in when Bob found a jiggle he had not tried before. The car ran great and still runs great considering the ‘driver’ is always a ‘newbie’ taught by the curator in how to drive a T.
(Message edited by george_nj on October 29, 2016)
Gee Bob....If I wasn't so wordy we would have posted at the exact same time! I didn't see your post as I was busy typing
Thank you Bob, that link answers most of my questions. Just one more question for those with experience with wood and some other kind of woven band. How do they "feel" when stepping on one of the pedals?
Stick with your Scandinavia's.... even if all you have are the newer ones. If you drive it like a Model T is supposed to be driven, they will last a long time. I run Scandinavia's - the newer ones - and I live in the West Virginia Mountains. Everywhere is up or downhill here. If you run 25 - 30 MPH maximum, and anticipate your actions, the bands will last.
I don't think it is possible to imagine the old woven asbestos band material will ever be made again due to health and safety problems with the asbestos cloth manufacture. Fortunately they are out there to be found.
Royce and others,
I have a roll of Raybestos lining. I always thought it was for the emergency brakes. I wonder how it would work for the transmission. Seems to be about the right size.
I have a nice set of Allstate band linings I bought on Ebay a while back. They are tightly woven and the correct length.
Planning to use them on the next band change. They dont come around as often as the other older brands.
Raybestos made and sold band lining for the Model T. I would sure try it if it is the proper width and thickness. When cutting it I would have a fan running that blew the cut fibers away from me, and wear a paper mask.
You did a fine oration. I just need time to work on my own replacement.
Rich - Interesting thread you've started here. Yes, this does come up quite often in the forum, however, always promotes interesting discussion.
Unless I missed it, this thread has not yet touched upon what I feel is a very worth while "consideration". And that is that with wood bands (which I particularly favor) there is very little (if any) lint to accumulate and pose the possible threat of a plugged-up oil tube. A really nice "bonus" with wood in my opinion. Maybe Kevlar too, but I'm not sure about the Kevlar,....FWIW,....harold
Thank you all for your replies !
Harold, "funny" you should mention lint ! Journey back in time with me to 1962. I was scabbing together my first Model T, when you could still get tires, coils and Scandinavia band lining from Montgomery Wards. In my inexperience, it wasn't very long before lint from the new bands clogged up the oil return line, and I had #1 &2 rods talkin' really loud to me !
I checked out Guinn's website, and was gratified to learn that wooden band lining was used "in the day". I'm curious as to the type of wood, and the method, but I reckon that's their trade secret. My T has wooden band lining, the gentleman I bought her from has been very pleased with them, and indicates that I will get a lot of use out of them yet. I don't plan to "fix what ain't broke", after 50 years or so of going "T-less" I just wanted to learn what folks are using these days.