My coil adjustment tools

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: My coil adjustment tools
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 09:39 pm:

Tools in shop
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ARNOLD2
ARNOLD3

Tools in clean room strobospark and ecct

ARNOLD4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 10:36 pm:

Hi Arnold,

You have all of the Big Three testing devices.

Everyone should be happy, but have your Nomex within reach.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Beatty _Kansas City on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 10:38 pm:

Do you get into arguments with yourself over which is better? :-)

Just kidding! Nice set-up you have there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 10:43 pm:

I have a running T engine on a stand for test, but what I need is dyno to get some real data that might answer some of our questions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ben Umberger on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 10:43 pm:

Please share some details, what are you doing with the points in a die? Is the scope used on coils?

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 11:01 pm:

What I have found is that The coil points from the vendors are out of specs. That die and press is used to set the cushion spring limit spring to the .005 that ford called for. I aiso have a set up to set the tension on the lower point tension spring.

I am sure Ron Paterson and John Regan will agree with the points being out of specs from the vendor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 11:09 pm:

The scope is used to see the difference between the voltage wave produced by the HCCT and that of a mag in a running engine running on battery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 02:25 am:

Arnold, Are those 2 rectangular items Ford Factory equipment for setting coil point gaps, used combined with a HCCT? I have never seen those before? You have the big 3 of coil testing devices. The fact you have a ECCT and are giving it a run is pleasing to see. I like mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 03:48 am:

I would like a conformation from John Regan, Mike Kossor and Ron Patterson to the following.

Do you all agree that the points we are getting from the vendor are out of specs, namely that the cushion spring limiting rivet gap is generally to large.

The blocks are called Johansson blocks and these might have actually been used in a Ford factory in the day. The problem is I cleaned them and could have removed Henry's dna.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 07:22 am:

The CEJ above Ford on those blocks are the initials of Carl Edvard Johansson, Henry Ford's head machinist and the reason that 1909 parts will still properly fit a 1927 Ford or any year in between.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gauge blocks (also known as gage blocks, Johansson gauges, slip gauges, or Jo blocks) are a system for producing precision lengths.

The individual gauge block is a metal or ceramic block that has been precision ground and lapped to a specific thickness. Gauge blocks come in sets of blocks with a range of standard lengths.

In use, the blocks are stacked to make up a desired length.

An important feature of gauge blocks is that they can be joined together with very little dimensional uncertainty. The blocks are joined by a sliding process called wringing, which causes their ultra-flat surfaces to cling together.

A small number of gauge blocks can be used to create accurate lengths within a wide range.

By using 3 blocks from a set of 30 blocks, one may create any of the 1000 lengths from 3.000 to 3.999 mm in 0.001 mm steps (or .3000 to .3999 inches in 0.0001 inch steps).

Gauge blocks were invented in 1896 by Swedish machinist Carl Edvard Johansson.

They are used as a reference for the calibration of measuring equipment used in machine shops, such as micrometers, sine bars, calipers, and dial indicators (when used in an inspection role). Gauge blocks are the main means of length standardization used by industry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 10:36 am:

Wot's the 2nd meter on the HCCT for? Hard to see but it kinda looks like a DC ammeter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 10:39 am:

A close call, but it is an AC Voltmeter.

Been there, seen that meter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 10:59 am:

James Golden:

I don't believe Johansson was ever the head machinist for Ford.

He wasn't even a Ford employee until the 1920s when Ford acquired his company.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 11:09 am:

Sat Arnold, do you flip a coin when it comes time to set up your coils? Or is it one tester for Mon/Wed/ Fri, ect. LOL.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 01:09 pm:

Erik,

That is my belief also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 01:10 pm:

Erik,

Just read what I wrote. My meaning was, I agree with you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 03:01 pm:

Arnold,

I am not Ron Patterson, nor John Regan and I would not presume to call myself an expert on coil points. However anyone who has purchased any of the points from certain vendors and had the means and knowledge how to adjust them might or might not get good ones. You are accurate in saying that many of the ones currently sold are improperly manufactured. I can save some of them, others I find that they cannot be repaired, and my time is better spent tossing them in the trash and trying the next set.

You might try buying your next batch from Langs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 03:14 pm:

Royce,
There is currently only one manufacturer of coil points in the United States. All vendors are selling the same points. You can verify this by asking John Regan or Ron Patterson. We do agree that they are out of specs. I was hoping that Ron or John would confirm my statement that they are out of Ford specs.

This may be to hot a topic but see if you can get their opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 03:25 pm:

Arnold,

I agree with you, all of the new points come from the same manufacturer. I speak to Ron and John on a regular basis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 04:35 pm:

Now that's a big surprise....

Here again, is the special adjustable cushion spring set up introduced to me by Garrett Green. I used this set up to characterize the effect of cushion spring travel on coil current.
Adjustable Cushion Spring Travel

The measured results supported Ford's recommended travel of 0.005" Cushion spring gravel in excess of 0.006" did not significantly increase coil firing current, and more importantly, coil firing time. That means the person adjusting the points must find the right balance between vibrator spring tension, cushion spring tension and point gap so that the point contacts break rapidly in 0.002 seconds without the benefit of the limit rivet doing its job to abruptly interrupt the cushion spring travel and open the point contacts rapidly. This is why it can be very difficult to achieve good coil firing consistency when adjusting coil points with more than 0.010" of cushion spring travel.
Coil Current Vs. Cushion Spring Travel
The original post and associated discussion can be found here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/589019.html?1448851835?1448851835#POST787683

(Message edited by mkossor on November 03, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 07:24 pm:

I visited Arnold and he told me a trade secret that he has discovered about those three different test methods, the mechanical adjustments are most important and once those are set, the coil will read very close to the same with any of the three coil testers.

His tool on the left in his second photo is used to set the cushion spring at the correct Henry Ford original .005 specification. Those gauge blocks are old and only used to insure the rivet is pressed flat to the .005 reading.

His other tool not shown is a gram gauge that was originally used to set the spring tension on mechanical telephone switching relays. He uses it to set the vibrator spring tension to 60 grams.

Then he assembles the new point set on the rebuilt coil. The coil will then need very little to no adjustment for the HCCT meters to read the correct values or the coil to pass on the ECCT and StroboSpark testers.

This photo is that gram gauge measuring the tension required to pull the vibrator spring down.

gauge


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