Gap between stg column and dash

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Gap between stg column and dash
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Saturday, November 05, 2016 - 12:50 pm:

I thought that the body was not bolted down and need to move forward on my '21 Touring because of the 1-2 inch gap between column and dash , but the body is bolted down. However, the steering is bolted to the frame with no wood block . When I get a block will that move the steering column rearward? I've seen talk of making your own block. Are there problems with the ones offered for sale?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Saturday, November 05, 2016 - 02:18 pm:

Are you using a stock 1921 type wood dash,(firewall), or a low steel 1923 type dash? The frame to dash brackets are different for each type dash. Check that you have the correct brackets. You can search forum for pictures posted prior.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, November 05, 2016 - 02:50 pm:

The wood block does not move the steering to frame mounting point forward or back. The mounting holes are fixed and the block just prevents racking and twisting. If the body is mounted correctly along the sides and the firewall is mounted to body whether it's metal or wood would be the same as viewed from the drivers side, the steering column is mounted on the drivers side of the firewall. Try sliding the assemble down into the bracket on the frame.
If you are using a metal firewall and it's sitting away from the body (gap) then you have the wrong brackets to frame. That can be fixed by adding spacers between them and the firewall after mounting it to the body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, November 05, 2016 - 03:39 pm:

The firewall to frame brackets need to be correct for the dash you use. The wood firewall brackets are not interchangeable with the metal firewall brackets. Its about a 3/4" difference if I remember correctly.

It can be your choice to use the steel low dash or a wood dash. They both will work. The wood dash would probably be correct for a 21.

I've seen and had the remains of low cowl T"s that a later low cowl dash in it when the car was an earlier car. Back in the T days people would go the junk yard and get a low cowl steel dash to replace a rotted out and deteriorating wood dash.
If you did that you would get the frame to dash brackets also.
When I restored my 21 I went ahead and bought a wood dash since that would be more correct to do so. I have 2 of the steel low cowl dash's but decided to be more correct. Years and years ago folks weren't concerned about being totally correct. They just wanted a reliable dash!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 01:46 am:

My firewall is wood. To make things clear we're talking about firewalls being wood or metal , not dashes, right. I don't understand "Try sliding the assemble down into the bracket on the frame." Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 08:10 am:

The gap between my column and dash is actually only about 1/2". I'm still trying to figure why. With the body bolted down and the wood firewall and the steering bolted to the frame, except missing the wood block, it still appears that something will have to move. Still not sure about the brackets though. The firewall is bolted to the outside of the cowl. I have not had any body mounting bolts loose . How much room for adjustment is there in the body mount/frame holes? [URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/1106160802_zpsp7ypzchw.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/1106160802_zpsp7ypzchw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 09:28 am:

The dash you have is wrong. The 21 will not have the clamp for the steering column and will be straight across the bottom and not have the notched ends. Yours is for a 23-25


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 09:31 am:

The column is drooping a bit. Normal. Hold the column against the bracket, install the bolts and tighten them. No big deal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 01:18 pm:

OK...I don't have the wrong firewall to frame brackets. I don't have any.
[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/1106160828_zps7bb96f01.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/1106160828_zps7bb96f01.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/1106160827_zpsqv7hh7od.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/1106160827_zpsqv7hh7od.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
I don't think that adding them, which I intend to do,will change the column fit situation. And I can force the column up enough to bolt it up but it takes a lot of pressure, and that can't be good. So I need to either find a '21 dash or make a spacer to go between my wrong dash and the column, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 03:20 pm:

Tommy, Install the correct frame to firewall brackets. Then loosen the column to firewall bolts and the column to lower frame bracket bolts so that their nuts are a little looser than finger tight. Pull the column up into your 1924 type dash bracket and start the bolts into the bracket. Now retighten all bolts a little at a time moving from firewall, to dash, to lower frame. Go a little at a time and back again. Note it looks like your firewall may not be drilled for the frame to firewall bracket bolts from the picture but I can't be sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, November 06, 2016 - 08:59 pm:

Tommy,

Bottom Line Up Front: I believe you have a replacement firewall. From the photos it appears it is probably resting on the frame. But you can look and see if it is or is not resting on the frame. If it is “NOT” resting on the frame but is actually about 1 inch above the frame, then this suggested solution will probably not help solve your issue.








A 1917-1923 wood firewall that is an accurate reproduction or an original should have the bottom of the firewall be approximately 1 inch above the top of the frame rail. Ref posting: By Bob Stoeckley on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 02:56 pm: at: file:///I:/16-07-26%20backup%20old%20pc/Auto/Model%20T%20Ford/Chassis/Firewall%20-%20Dash/1917-20%20Firewall/1918%20firewall.html

Below is a photo from page 34 of the May-Jun 1991 “Vintage Ford” of the original firewall of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle Ford. The photo was previously published on page 36 of the Sep-Oct 1978 “Vintage Ford.” When the photographs were originally taken, the car had only 26 miles showing on the speedometer. The photo clearly shows that the firewall should not touch the top of the frame. (Photo used by permission to promote our club and our hobby.) It also shows the firewall bracket used on the 1917-1923 wood firewall cars.



From the same thread mentioned above at: file:///I:/16-07-26%20backup%20old%20pc/Auto/Model%20T%20Ford/Chassis/Firewall%20-%20Dash/1917-20%20Firewall/1918%20firewall.html By John F. Regan on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 01:14 pm: John posted the illustration below of a drawing of a 1918 firewall: (Thank you John!)



If you add the approximately 1 inch between the firewall and the frame to the height of the firewall you come up with 20 41/64 inches.

If you compare that number to the dimensions from the Aug 1, 1920 Ford Service Bulletins for the car chassis below:



20 ¾ inches from the frame to the top of the hood which is 20 48/64 you notice there is 7/64 difference. I believe that is the thickness of the hood lacing, rain gutter, and hood and clearances. I have old eyes so I may have misread some of that. But it also agrees closely with what Bob Stoeckley measured on his car in that same thread. (Thank you Bob).

Will that correct the issue? Maybe. But if the reproduction firewall is not done correctly the answer is maybe not. Is that the same firewall that the 1915-1916 hood former was on originally when you purchased the car? I believe the 1920ish wood firewalls would have been the same 19 41/64 high as the 1918 ones. They used the same firewall brackets, same hood, etc. They did add a drip rail, but I don’t think that caused a change in the firewall height. Also there were changes during that time one of which was to allow access to the starter more easily. It looks like the firewall you have may have those additional cutouts/curves at the bottom (see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/262423.html?1327588452 the photograph of the man holding the new firewall/dash he just made. And especially John Regan’s comments a little further down that say, “ Look carefully at the dash the man is holding in that picture. Notice that the part in his left hand clearly indicates that the bottom end of the dash is curved and thus trimmed for additional clearance. It was done on both sides but you cannot see that on the other side because the man's right hand covers it but the trimming of that lower portion of the dash was done to gain extra clearance for the starter and its mounting bolts. Thus the dash has to be a 1919 or later version…..”Also note that the carburetor choke rods and mixture rod "slots" are oblong holes while the 1915 dash would still have a round hole for the carb control rod. Finally notice that the grain of the dash is vertical. Prior to the end of 1919 there is evidence that this dash (factory number 8761) was fabricated usually with horizontal outer veneer or outer ply prior to late 1919. It is possible that the grain of the outer ply was allowed to be either way prior to late 1919 when it was specified on the drawing to be vertical. The picture is very likely 1920 or later.”

Note at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/378899.html?1375804433 John commented that the dash in the picture was 11/16 inch thick.

Another item that could change the alignment is the type of lower steering gear to frame bracket. There were several and the later 1926 ones lowered the steering column (as well as the earlier 1911 torpedo one). Please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/388573.html?1379243538 for a discussion along with photos of the lower steering brackets.

Additionally be sure that the lower steering gear bracket is correctly mounted below the frame on a stock car (speedsters sometimes mount it above). It fits more than one way. Please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/583680.html?1446465712

And yes, be sure to use the correct firewall brackets see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/336045.html that has some good photos of both styles next to each other. Also a photo showing they are the same height for both the wood or the metal firewall.

Hopefully between what others have posted and will post, you will get it sorted out. Good luck with your T!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 08:28 am:

Thanks all. My firewall is 3/4-7/8" above the frame and the steering bracket is below the frame. Still trying to check everything else by Hap's info. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 11:26 am:

Tommy,

Jim Sims gave you your answer, that's not a 1921 dashboard. There is nothing else wrong with what you've got.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 11:34 am:

This is what a 1921 dashboard looks like:



If you've got a true 1921 body, using the correct windshield frame, this is what you need.

Post a photo of the whole car, especially one showing the whole cowl & windshield.


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