1920 - 1926 engine difference

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: 1920 - 1926 engine difference
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 04:50 am:

Hi guys, I just wanted to know if there are any differences between a 1920 and a 1926 model t engine? My car is a 26 but my engine serial is a 1920.

Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 05:33 am:

Yes, the major differences would be on the 26, 2 bolts screw in the back of the block, wider brake drum, 1/2 the clutch plates and the hogs head will have the 2 bolt ears for the back of the block, single valve cover and the fan is on the outlet spout + some other internals like crank and cam shafts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 05:35 am:

Forgot the 4 dipper pan as well on the 26.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 06:14 am:

Shawn,

They interchange and function fine. 99.999 etc. % of the folks in the world will never know the difference.

You said your engine was a 1920 serial number. Usually folks back in the day swapped out the entire engine and transmission assembly. And even today that is still easier to swap them as an assembly. It is a lot easier then removing the engine and transmission and swapping out the block while keeping the original transmission. You pull the complete assembly either way.

At: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng7 it has a list of many of the changes to the engine, engine block, head etc. You will notice that most of them are minor.

If the engine was rebuilt in the last 20 years it probably doesn't matter that originally a 1920 engine had heavier pistons. Most folks replace the pistons when the engine is rebuilt.

The 1926-27 had a slightly wider brake drum and brake drum band (1/4 inch wider) that helps reduce the number of times that the brake band needs to be adjusted or changed. And some modern bands will not care.

The 1926 Cylinder casting added a boss at rear to mate with new transmission cover which bolted to the cylinder beginning July 27, 1925 with S/N 12,218,729. That provided additional rigidity to the engine and transmission assembly. And not too long after that a braced was added that also bolted to the bolts that held the transmission cover to the back of the engine block.

And of course the wider pedals introduced with the 1926 are easier to keep your feet on.

The later cars also had an EE crankshaft introduced - but that can be fitted to a 1920's block. It was a little better crankshaft. for normal slow Model T driving not a factor. If you want to drive fast -- a stronger crankshaft is a good thing along with better brakes to have.

If the engine is already installed and running/driving then you don't need to make any changes to it. If it was not installed a few items may need to be swapped out to make it fit. For example the slots in the floor boards are not quite the same for the earlier engine verses the later engine. The throttle linkage may need to be modified -- especially if your 1926 had a vaporizer carburetor and your 1920 has a normal carb.

There is a very remote ... slim chance that you have a 1926-27 engine block with a 1920 serial number. Replacement blocks were stamped by the dealers with the original number. But in that case the engine block would have been a replacement for a 1920 car not a 1926. If it was for a 1926 car, they would have stamped the 1926 engine number on the block.

Good luck with your car. And please add some photos. It is always good to see photos of the cars.

Also, please look at the firewall of your car on the engine side and let me know what letter and number you find. Below is a photo of John's early 1926 with the A490 showing on the firewall:



For a look at John's car see the photo on his profile page at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=26tourer-users

And please also lift up the front floor boards and look down on the top of the frame rails. There is a good chance you will find the original engine serial number stamped on top of either the left or right frame rail.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 10:48 am:

You can't always tell by the serial number either. In the day many numbers were changed to the same as the vin number under which the car is registered, rather than changing the registration to the number on the engine. There were even blocks manufactured after the run of Model T's ended and those blocks had no number on them from the factory.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 11:08 am:

I've been searching my car for additional numbers other than the engine which is October, 1924. I'm afraid that portions of the frame where the numbers are sometimes found, have been replaced. Any thoughts to less typical places to search?

On the plus side, my search has led me to do some hyper detailed cleaning. I suspect I've wiped off some decades old grime in places.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 12:44 pm:

It is also good to check the casting date on the block.
It will give you a hit as to weather you have a replacement motor.

If the casting date is after the motor number there is a very good chance it is a replacement.

If it is before and close to the date of the motor number it is most likely the original number for that block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 01:03 pm:

Charlie:

I believe the engine number was put on the chassis after the start of the 1926 model year and continued after that into the Model A Ford era. Therefore you may not find the engine number on the frame unless someone other than the factory put it there!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

Wow thanks for all the info guys. My chassis number is 13940101 and my engine number is 4550664. When I get home I'll check the firewall. What is the number on the firewall for?
engine1engine2engine3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 08:14 pm:

G'day Shawn,
The firewall number was the Geelong production number.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 08:20 pm:

Peter,
It's a left hand drive T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 08:41 pm:

Ahhh, its an imported car. Does that mean no number on the firewall? By looking at the engine is it a 1920 or 1926?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 09:16 pm:

Shawn,

Short answer, you have a pre-1926 USA block (it does not have a boss on the back of the engine block for the bolts to hold the transmission cover to the block). You also have a 1926-27 style transmission cover (also called hogs head) that has the holes for the bolts to be threaded into the 1926-27 style blocks. You also have the 1926-27 style wider pedals.

If the serial number you posted 4,550,664 was originally stamped onto the block,that number was recorded on the Highland Park engine log under the Nov 9, 1920 date. If the engine was assembled at Highland Park, then it was produced on that date. If the number was shipped to another assembly plant and stamped on and engine and transmission assembly produced at that plant it was probably days or even possibly weeks later. But it still would have been 1920. Note Ford did not stamp numbers on a bare block, or a short block but only on a completed engine and transmission assembly.

If you look just to the right of the water inlet of the side of the block you will find a circle. That will have some numbers around it. That will be the date the block was cast at the foundry.

Yes, from your photos it appears it is a USA car that was imported. Note Australia allowed the importation of closed cars from Canada, but in your case I would guess with the left hand steering, USA engine block, USA engine head, USA engine number stamped on the frame -- that indicates all those parts are USA so the car likely is a USA produced Coupe.

In that case you will not find a number on the engine side of the dash (which is where the 1926-27 Canadian & Australian cars placed their Assembly Plant letter and numbers. But there is a slim chance you may be able to find the Assembly Plant letter and numbers for the USA assembly plant that built your car. Many of the 1926-27 USA Model Ts do NOT have an assembly plant number. Most of the USA 1928-1931 Model A Fords (but not all of them) do have an assembly plant number. Please see the posting at: : http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40604.html for additional details on where and what to look for when it comes to the USA assembly plant numbers or the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/196599.html?1299852394 for additional information about the Canadian and Australian assembly plant numbers.

So far the earliest USA assembly plant number I have a photo of is 1925ish.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 09:35 pm:

Shawn,

Below is photo showing how to read the casting date in the round circle on the USA engines from about 1919ish to 1922ish.



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 09:35 pm:

This is the picture of the block serial and the chassis number. Besides the water inlet and firewall are there any other places that will have a number?
serial1serial2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 07, 2016 - 09:46 pm:

Shawn,

The photos below show the flat machined area that was added to the back of the Model T engine block for the transmission to bolt up against.



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 01:41 am:

My '27 has one other difference that I don't believe (unless I missed it) has been mentioned. When I replaced the vaporizer carburetor with the mid-'20's Holley NH, there was no hole for the throttle linkage rod thru' the block between cylinders #2 and #3, therefore, I purchased from Lang's, a very well made throttle linkage which utilizes the throttle rod that goes over the cylinder head, and a new rod made out of drill rod that goes straight down to the Holley NH. Works very well by the way but my point here is to say that I think all of the "New Improved" Model T's ('26 & '27) do NOT have the hole thru' the block between #2 & #3 cylinders. Again, not sure about your '26, but my '27 engine does not have the hole. FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 01:45 am:

Well shoot!!! I guess I screwed up AGAIN! Now I see a photo of your engine that DOES have the throttle linkage rod thru' the block. Sorry,.....however,....I do still wonder when the change was made,.....I suppose maybe just for the '27 engine when the vaporizer was used,....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 04:10 am:

Ok. I just found these. engine4engine5

I also found a plate under the dash but there was nothing on it.

engine6


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 10:52 am:

A casting date or the two holes for the bolts to hold the hogs head ears is the way to tell a 26-27 block. A hole for the throttle rod between cylinders 2&3 is not proof. Many, if not most of the blocks have been altered by drilling through for the throttle rod so they could remove the tempermental vaporizer carburetor and install a Holly or Kingston or other side draft carb.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 10:57 am:

The patent plate shown above is just that, a patent plate! This particular one was used from 1925-27.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 11:35 am:

1926 patent plate:

https://www.modeltford.com/item/1865G.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 12:03 pm:

One difference between a 20 & a 26 block as I've been told, is that the 26's are more prone to cracking. Not trying to diss nor scare but just sayin'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 04:31 pm:

OK guys so by the looks of it I have a 1926 hogs head but a 1920 block. Somewhere along the way the head has been changed. So any parts that I order for the engine must be for a 1920 engine not 26.

Thanks again for all the information. This forum is the best!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, November 08, 2016 - 05:38 pm:

Shawn,

It is not completely that simple. For example the length of the camshaft front bearing was changed during the 1924 production. You can install the later camshaft in the earlier block by installing the matching front cam bearing.

Also you may have a pre 1926 transmission or a 1926-27 transmission inside the hogs head. And you may have a later engine pan. You have the later 1926 (not sure if it is early 26 or the later 1926-27 water outlet with the fan on your cylinder head.

Many of the parts interchange. Some better than others.

The letters on the front of the left side of the engine were used to indicate which mold was used to cast the block. That was used internally by the company to pull molds that were causing issues.

Mark -- Larry is correct, that patent plate that is held on with only 2 rivets was introduced during the 1925 model year production. Two rivets times a lot of cars saved money....

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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