Sambuca new E-brake rods giving me problems

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Sambuca new E-brake rods giving me problems
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Saturday, November 19, 2016 - 12:22 pm:

I want to get, Sambuca my 1917 Model T Ford Express Delivery back on the road, because this mighty steed is 100years old now and loves to run. But I'm having trouble reinstalling the emergence brakes. I bought new shoes (that have linings and new rods) from Lang's Old Car Parts. I connected up the passenger side and check it out, everything was great. However when I took the drivers side wheel off to check it, there was fluid on the drum & shoe. I cleaned everything up with brake cleaner and put it back together, but that wheel doesn't turn with e-brake release. I'll keep working on it until I can figure it out, but would like some suggestion.

Happy motoring,

Thanks in advance, Warren (Mystery-Man), it's a mystery to me what I'm doing!








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Saturday, November 19, 2016 - 06:40 pm:

Looks like the shoes are rubbing the inside of the drum. You might have to put a shim on the axle taper to move the wheel and drum out to get some clearance. At least one of the parts vendors sells the shim pre-made in two thicknesses.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, November 19, 2016 - 07:45 pm:

Warren,

Did you purchase the emergency brake shoes within the last six months or more than a couple of years ago? The newer “lined” 1909-25 brake shoes require less fitting than the previous “lined” 1909-25 brake shoes that the vendors used to sell. I’m not quite sure when they started making the better shoes but there were several comments on how much grinding was required to fit the previous reproduction accessory “lined” 1909-25 shoes.

Note as Dennis correctly stated you can see where the shoe is rubbing the drum leaving a good 1 inch or so wide bight ring. In your case using the axle shims could move the drum & wheel further out from the spot where it is rubbing. I.e. the bright spot on the shoes for about an inch above and below where the brake cam rotates to expand the shoes. See shims at: https://www.modeltford.com/pl.aspx?t=s&v=2505SH&page=1 but I did not see the thicker ones they have in their 2015 catalog part number 2505SHB that were .017 thick. If you want the diagram that shows the shape you would cut out to make the shim let us know and we will look it up. The are not hard to cut. Unfortunately the soda and beer cans are no longer made out of steel, so it is not as easy to find the thin steel as it was back in the 1970s.

Note you could probably also just grind down that area that is showing the wear, refit the wheel and check to see if anything else is hitting the drum.

Note from the photo, it does not look like the rear wheel nuts were staked to the bolts. While crude looking, it does work. See Dan Treace's posting at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/299893.html where he had to grind down the lined shoes as well as showing how the nuts were staked to the bolts.

Good luck with your car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, November 19, 2016 - 08:02 pm:

It does very much look like the shoe web or body is contacting the drum. I'm not a fan of shimming out the axle to move the wheel/drum to a new position. It needs to be where it belongs on the shaft. Your shoes need to be fitted properly probably by grinding off the offending metal. Use some chalk or crayon on the shoe body and re-install the wheel without the nut. Turn it a few revolutions and remove it. Where the marker has rubbed off it where your problem is. You of course also have a leaking axle seal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 08:38 am:

Thank you to everyone who responded to my request. I don't think the shoe is the problem, because before I connected the brake rods, I had started Sambuca up and him run for quite a while. I wanted to check the brake drum temperature on both wheels, using my infer red thermometer and they were only 54 degrees, also the both wheels turn freely. I then connected the emergence brake rod to the passenger side first and checked that it worked correctly.

I have received this private email message from James and believe he has the correct solution:

“Hey Warren,

Did you try to lengthen the emergency brake rod by rotating the clevis at the quadrant end? Sounds like the rod may be too short, and by the picture you posted there looks like theres enough to lengthen it.

Hope all is well with you!

James”

Thank you, James, I will try readjusting that rod next chance I get and let everyone know how it works out.
My only concern is that with the passenger side connected properly and the wheel turning freely with e-brake released and not being able to turn the wheel with e-brake set, that is what I used for the rod adjustment on the driver’s side.

Thanks to all & Happy motoring,

Warren
(am concerned about the small amount of grease found in the drum and on the brake shoe)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 09:01 am:

Warren,

Did you set the hand brake lever full forward and then adjust the clevis on the e-brake rod to just be able to slip the clevis pin in--without pulling on the rod during install?

I too am wondering if the rods are adjusted wrong currently.

As far as grease getting on the drums, it appears you might have an axle seal leak. This area should be dry. And also wondering why you have a felt on the outside of the felt retainer cap.

As also stated, there may be some fitting (grinding) of the accessory shoes to get them to fit properly. This is not uncommon to have to do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 10:57 am:

The parking brake rods have nothing to do with the shoes rubbing on the brake drum. The above post is a good start for adjusting those rods. I have lined shoes on all of my cars, but I prefer to use old stock shoes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 12:02 pm:

You cleaned up the leaking oil and grease on the left side - but after you start driving again it'll start leaking again, unless you do something about it. To fit an effective modern neoprene seal you'll have to pull the outer bearing and its sleeve (takes a sleeve puller), some cleaning - and following Steve's advice: https://youtu.be/AfxWPsF4KhQ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 12:08 pm:

Chad, thank you for your advise. To answer your question, "also wondering why you have a felt on the outside of the felt retainer cap" because I took the cap off in order to take that picture. Two years ago I bought a complete Ruckstell rear end including the drive shaft, from a member in Colorado and I'm still trying to get it installed in Sambuca.

Thanks again everyone for your help, together we'll get Sambuca "back on the road again"!

Happy motoring,

Warren


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 12:18 pm:

I would ether grinding the face of the shoe where it's rubbing or add axle shim. Next, I suggest putting the brake springs on the inboard side of the shoes. Even if the hook is centered on the spring, putting on the inboard side will tend to pull the spring to the backing plate rather then away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Weisgerber- Vancouver WA. on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 02:25 pm:

One thing that I see in the second photo is that the drum is not seated properly on the hub. It should be down even with the top of the drum centering flange, not riding even with the top of it as shown.

Charles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 02:58 pm:

Chad

in this case, purposeful or not, there should indeed be another seal on the outside of the metal cup. That ridge on the inside of the drum is there for a reason, and a felt seal goes in there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

He may need to adjust the rods but those shoes are hitting the drum. At least it sure looks that way from the pictures. It doesn't appear that the shoe has been cut or split from what I can see either so the spring position is moot. Is the lining installed off center or is the shoe wider than necessary? I ask because there appears to be metal protruding out past the lining. What ever ammount you ran it for Warren you've got a substantial leak. Check your differential fluid level. You might be over filled.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 06:13 pm:

Two observations which come to mind.
For Hap, the ill fitting shoes which required much fettling to achieve an acceptable fit came in two pieces. The ones shown are the good one piece ones which have not yet been cut at the pivot bolt.

Warren, do the shoes hang off the backing plate at the cam side? That is where the wear marks are showing on the outside edge. If so, the backing plate at the rear pivot bolt needs to be slightly bent outwards to get the bolt at right angles to the backing plate. You might just be able to do this by bending on the bolt with a big crescent wrench, just enough to get the shoes to sit flat against the plate.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 07:26 pm:

Warren, In your post it says your T is a 1917. On Model T's up to 1918 the differential fill plug is on the center line of the rear axle. In 1919 Ford lowered the fill plug because it was easy to overfill the rear axle. If your axle has the center line fill plug make sure that the oil is about 1/2 inch below the fill hole. While you have the rear wheels off now is the time to check the outer sleeves for wear. Pull the bearings out and clean and check everything. You can pull the sleeves and install the inner seals that the vendors sell. You can also use the modern type outer seals sold by the vendors to try to keep the oil from the brakes. As others have said you can use a axle shim on each axle to move the hub out a little and tighten it on the axle, the vendors sell steel shims. Make sure that the wheels are free before connecting the e-brake rods then adjust the hand break for free neutral and e-brake at past vertical hand brake lever. As others have said you may need to do a little grinding on the e-brakes to keep them from rubbing or dragging when released.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, November 20, 2016 - 08:12 pm:

Good point about the bolt Allan. From the pic I think the cam end is where their hitting. Needs to be checked maybe with a square of some kind. Of course loosening the nut and rotating the bolt will show you that too. If the shoes move in & out from the backing plate at the cam end as you turn the bolt it's bent. Did not know about the plug being moved. Obviously it would be easy to over fill a higher plug. It would take a lot more lube but it can be done. Only mentioned it because his shoes got so wet so fast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 07:36 am:

Thanks again everyone, I'm adding some more photo that I hope will help. Before trying to install the e-brake rods both wheels turned easily, with no noise by hand or when I had the engine running.

Happy motoring,

Warren

This is how it looked with wheel and brake drums removed.
photo of brake shoe- no drum in this photo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 05:09 pm:

Here's the latest news on Sambuca's E-brake problem, today I disconnected the E-brake rod and started Sambuca up. He run great, with no noises coming from drive wheels or rear end. I used my infer red thermometer and the passenger side (just barely turning) was 52 degrees, the drivers side spinning very fast was 51 degrees (film at eleven).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntyNKZiJqyc&feature=youtu.be

Thank you Kevin, for your help with the fill plug, mine is located up high (close to the top of the axle housing) and I filled it up to that fill hole.

Looks like all I have to do now is to get the E-brake rod adjusted correctly.

Happy motoring,

Warren

Ruckstell fill plug,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Henderson, Dunbarton, NH on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 07:54 am:

I DID IT. I had to cut about 1" off the e-brake rod on the drivers side to make it fit. Now I have e-brakes, the wheels spin easily when not in-gauged and with my Ruckstell in low gear and they even stop the wheels from turning. Once again I used my infer red thermometer and the passenger side (just barely turning) was 52 degrees, the drivers side spinning very fast was 51 degrees.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody and especially to all those who helped with your suggestions,

Warren

http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=353386021&m=1556&source=bma992&c=embm63459 &utm_medium=internal_email&utm_source=pickup&utm_campaign=confirm


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