Chitty Chitty not going Bang Bang.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Chitty Chitty not going Bang Bang.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 11:37 am:

I am going to preface this thread by stating that I have never heard this motor run, so I'm starting from scratch with it. 26/27 engine with Holly NH carb and motor mounted coil box.
I get four buzzing boxes and 4 sparking plugs. Iget gas to the carb. When I engage the starter, it turns over like crazy and just goies through it's cycles and I can hear the carb sucking and every few cycles a pop like a backfire and my son says he has seen some exhaust come out of the carb when than happens. Adjust the choke, gas and timing and it just doesn't sound like it even wants to fire up.
Pulled the plugs and poured a spoonful of gas into each cyl and put the plugs back in and turn it over and it did NOT burn off the gas in the cyls. No buring off the gas and then dying which would indicate to me a carb problem. If I get spark at the plugs when pulled from the engine but can't get an explsion of raw gas when resinstalled, what am I missing? The carb was rebuilt prior to installation, but I have not done any settings on it, presumed it arrived "pre set" to at least be close.

I have not checked or done anything with valves as that might be beyond my capabilities. And, living in Atlanta, GA, not a T club or a lot of members in the area to run over and hit it with the majic hammer.

Any starting point (no pun intended) appreciated. I'm looking to post a short vieo of what it is and is not doing shortly, but not much to tell from the noises.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 11:51 am:

I'm far from expert, but I think I'd check the timing to be sure it's not 180 deg. out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 11:52 am:

Robert, I highly doubt you carb would come back to you with the proper setting to run properly. Loosen the nut on the mixture needle, turn the needle in till it stops (not too hard), then back it out about 1 1/2 to 2 turns and then tighten the nut up so that you can still turn the needle with a little resistance. Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:02 pm:

Some cam shafts have the hole for the pin drilled all the way through and you can install the roller wrong, putting it 180 out. Pull the timer off, check. If that's not the case you may have it timed on the exhaust stroke not the firing stroke.
If you primed it with gas in the cylinders and it didn't fire and run for a short burst, it is not the carb (yet). Of course if you put too much gas in you could flood it but after the excess is expelled it should try and start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Bauer on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:06 pm:

Four buzzing boxes? One at a time I hope, not all simultaneously.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:25 pm:

Pull the valve cover and make sure all valves are opening and closing as the motor is turned over. If the motor has been sitting for a while there is a possibility one or more valves can be stuck open.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:32 pm:

Wow, I thought I posted and nothing has shown up. I haven't pulled the timing cover and checked for a through hole on the shaft, but in my mind, I put a wood dowel in the 1 cyl and turned the crank until I felt TDC on `1 and connected my timing wires to the coils so that 1 buzzed and I got spark, then went down the cyls so that 1 2 4 3 would fire in that order.
If my timer was off 180 degress, I shouldn't be able to do that would I?
After reading a bunch of threads on initial timeing, I'll do that again but wait until I feel the dowel and piston just starting to descend and make sure my timing adjuster on the steering wheel is fully retared and then set my timing rod.

Will this get me close?

I'll do the carb needle adjustment while I am out there. Presume rich/lean adjustment is not an issue for start up?

Just doesn't feel like I'm close.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:33 pm:

"Turns over like crazy..." usually means no compression and/or way retarded timing. Check compression first off since that is the first thing to check on a tune up. You should get 40-50 lbs at least.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:52 pm:

Carb setting seems OK. Don't know if this adds anything to the situation, but when I put the 1 cyl on just past TDC and I turn my switch on, the 1 coil and plug buzz and spark. I pull my steering wheel timing adjusting rod all the way up and down and it is turning the timing cover clockwise and counterwise, but the 1 coil never stops buzzing. So the timing adjustment is not adjusting too well. Or is there that much "play" in the timing adjustment?

Not sure I have a compression gage to check on compression. Guess I can pull the plugs and stick my finger over the hole and see if I feel a consistent pressure from cyl to cyl. I have had the head off and I know all the pistons go up and down. Don't know if all the valve are going up and down. I can check that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 12:57 pm:

Robert if it was 180 degrees out it would be trying to fire on the exhaust stroke vice the compression stroke when you feel the piston coming up place your thumb or a wine cork in the plug hole and continue to turn if you feel compression you are in the right place if you don't feel compression you are on the exhaust stroke


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

Before you take anything apart do this. Pull out the spark plugs and test the compression. If you don't have a compression gauge, put a finger or thumb in the holes one at a time and feel for a strong push of air trying to push your finger out. If you dont get a strong push, your compression is low. If you have a gauge and your engine is stock, you should get between 45 and 50 psi for each cylinder. A drop or two of oil in the cylinder will oil the rings and should help raise the compression.

After you find the compression is OK, with spark plugs out, rotate the hand crank and turn the engine over until you feel compression on number 1 cylinder. Just after the piston reaches top and begins to go down you should get the spark to the first cylinder. With the key on and the spark lever all the way up, number 1 coil should start to buzz just after the piston reaches top. If it buzzes at any other position of the piston you have a spark timing problem. The firing order is 1,2,4,3. See other posts on how to set the timer for timing order and the wiring between the coil box and timer. Or if you have service manual, look for that information.

If you have very low or no compression, you have either a valve problem or the timing gears are not set properly. To fix either of these problems, you will need to dig into the engine.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 02:13 pm:

There are LOTS of Model T guys in the Atlanta area. You need to get someone from the local T club to come over and assist. It is likely something very simple.

The internet is great for some things. Not this. You can save yourself a lot of time and money by joining the local T club.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 02:46 pm:

OK, it looks like I was 180 d out of timing. Just brain farted the two strokes and set the initial timing at TDC, but on the wrong stroke. I knew that didn't work, so went one more stroke on the 1 cyl and moved all my wires from the timer to the coils reverse from what I had.

Still no start yet, but it's awfully close. Sounds like it wants to go. I've got the rear end up on jackstands and it's turning the rear wheels as I try to start, so I'm shifting gears (no pun intended_ to find true neutral as I'm sure that isn't helping me try to start. And then some carb tweeking and I think it will bang bang.

When I got this idea for a WWI Model T project, the first thing I searced for was a Model T club in the area. Not one in the whole state of Georgia. A few scattered national members, but not the network of T owners that I was hoping for.
So, the Internet, it is.

I'll give a final report, but for one mornings work, I sincerely appreciate all the advice and many thanks for being respectful of my limited knowledge on the T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 04:09 pm:

Robert,

You wrote:
"I pull my steering wheel timing adjusting rod all the way up and down and it is turning the timing cover clockwise and counterwise, but the 1 coil never stops buzzing.

Your issue is timing. You need to fix that.

Mike Robison offers this:
How to Time a Model T
1. Turn crank shaft around until crank pin is horizontal
2. Turn key to Batt.
3. Retard spark
4. No coils should be buzzing
5. If coil buzzes go to step 8
6. Advance spark rod 3-5 clicks on quadrant a coil should buzz; If coil
doesn’t begin to buzz go to step 9
7. Retard spark, coil should stop buzzing everything okay!
8. The timer control needs to be lengthened return to step 3
9. The timer control needs to be shortened return to step 3
10. Coil should buzz and quit buzzing every time you advance and retard
the spark!

And do be sure that you have your wires connected properly...from timer to plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 04:25 pm:

No MTFCA chapters, but there is a MTFCI chapter in Fairmount, GA.

Might be a bit of a drive, but I am sure they must have some members in Atlanta.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 05:16 pm:

A picture is worth 1,000 words. So a video must be priceless.

https://youtu.be/EO9hkFQNi5s


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 06:23 pm:

Very nice looking car. Too bad that rear wheel is so out of round.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Azevedo on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 06:34 pm:

Robert,

You are running good on 3 cylinders! While running, push down on the points on each coil. You will not get shocked. You may find one that makes no difference in the running. Points may need adjustment or coil replaced. It might be a fouled plug. With a long screw driver with a good insulated handle, short out each plug to see if one makes no difference in the running. Might be fouled or no spark getting to it. Once you get it running better, adjust the carb needle valve to fine tune it. Best of luck.

Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 21, 2016 - 08:34 pm:

My wife noticed the rear wheel as well. These are Model A wire wheels welded to Model T hubs and this one wheel has the lips of both drums on it and when I put in the brake cam, it does not clear. I'll deal with it during the winter. But to roll it around the driveway, I loosened the nut quite a bit so it doesn't squeal and rub. But since I can't find true neutral on this critter, I got the rear jaceked up and with the wheel so loose, that is the way it appears. It is not out of round.

Tomorrow we'll look for that missing cyl and get all four working. I'm getting excited now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 11:04 am:

Just an update...
seems to us that 3 and 4 are both dead. Working on coils and plugs and getting compression tester gage kit from Northern Tool today and see if we can track down what our issues are. Check valves as well.
We see spark through the plugs, but haven't put a meter on anything to make sure we have enough spark from coils. Rebuilt coils, but my cleaned up, original coil box on motor. I know about the FUN projects rebuild kit, but want to see what the old girl is putting out before I undertake that project, that really doesn't sound all that FUN to me.

TO THE DRIVEWAY!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 11:08 am:

The personal satisfaction you will get when it is running properly will make everything VERY rewarding!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 11:40 am:

Continuous buzz on one coil can be something as simple as an unintended ground. I had this from the timing rod touching one of the timer contacts. The cure was simply getting the rod back to its proper shape.


Terminal screw touching rod = continuous buzz.

There are umpteen jillion descriptions of how to set timing. Here's another: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 05:47 pm:

Update. All coils and plugs appear to work correctly. Engine starts on first tap of the starter, but is extremely rought and timming adjustment tod does little to smooth it out.
We shorted out plug and felt that both 3 and 4 cyl are not firing. Pulled plugs and they are wet and gas is getting to them and they fire when taken out of the head.
Opened valve inspection door and, sure enough, one valve on 3 and one valve on 4 is stuck open and not coming back down. If I were to number the valves starting at the radiator and working back to the firewall, it is valve 5 and valve 8. Or the forward valve on cyl 3 and the rear most valve on cyl 4.

So tomorrow, we'll remove the head and see if we can gently work or tap the valve back down and get the operating up and down as advertised.

We're getting close.

Interesting that when I purchased the motor, transmission and frame from Model T Haven, I was told all I had to do was put a battery in it.

TO THE GARAGE!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 05:30 am:

Did you try gently prying them back down? Spray em good with some pb blaster or kroil or something like that and see if you can get them working. May not have to pull head. Of course, to do the job RIGHT, there are those who'd tell you you must do a complete rebuild or catastrophic things can happen. They're right. It could happen. But I'm a risk taker and shade tree mechanic extraordinaire that likes getting things running that have been sitting up too long.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 09:37 am:

Yes, Hal, after doing some more reading, we will try spraying the stems and prying up on them and even maybe a bent rod through the spark plug holes to wiggle and jiggle them prior to removing the head.
We'll be out on the driveway all day anyway watching the Turkey smoke, so might as well wiggle and jiggle.
We've dodged some major bullets with the T so far, hope our luck holds out.


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