What Year is the engine in a '13-'14 Speedster Help please

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: What Year is the engine in a '13-'14 Speedster Help please
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 01:10 pm:

1913-1914 ish Speedster. Trying to determine the year of the engine. The numbers on the pad just above the water outlet are too faded to read, even after a light spray and rub down. However there is a 19 embossed just to the front of the water outlet, about 3 inches Southwest of the engine number pad. Does anyone know what this "19" means?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 01:12 pm:

Take a stiff wire brush and clean the pad. You should be able to read the numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 01:16 pm:

There might be a casting date on the block to the right of the water outlet that will give you the month and year


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 01:17 pm:

Thanks Erik, Will give that a try, Have read this thread.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/178201.html

No other numbers to the rear of the water outlet but this embossed 19 to the front of the water outlet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 01:25 pm:

Does it have the holes at the rear of the block for the 26-27 hogs head? How about a photo of the other side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 01:41 pm:

Will take a look, was told it was a "new" block at some point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 03:22 pm:

If it was a new replacement block then it might not have had a serial number stamped on it. I've got one with no number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 04:11 pm:

Thanks Corey, Any idea of another way to determine the year?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 04:13 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 04:23 pm:

It is from late 1912 - 1918 calendar year. Take the hood off and let some light in so that the photo can tell us more next time. There is a date casting on the other side of the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 04:42 pm:

Since it is a NEW motor the re-stamping on the pad is extremely hard to read, even after wire brush, sand paper etc. No date embossed that I can see, just that "19" to the front of the water outlet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 05:20 pm:

Unless someone ground off the date it is where the arrow is pointing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 05:20 pm:

Don't use sandpaper.

Keep going at it with the wire brush.

Also, bend down and take a better photo with the camera the lens parallel to the pad.

What's the serial number listed on the title?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 05:39 pm:

Photo of pad from Jake.

Sometimes taking a pencil rubbing on a piece of paper works. Otherwise, try wiping some paint into the numbers.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 06:46 pm:

The engine block is from 1921 to 1923 production, it has a one piece valve galley first used in 1921 and it has Ford Made in USA last used in 1923.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

The engine has the early type generator block off casting used on nonstarter cars in 1919 to 1920, and maybe some in 1921.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 07:09 pm:

Sure looks like a non-starter block - I'm not seeing the parting line where the generator block-off casting is bolted on ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 07:25 pm:

Look for screw in freeze plugs under the exhaust manifold and above the intake manifold. That would narrow it to 13 and earlier or 14 and after.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 08:11 pm:

I have no idea what some of you guys are seeing.That is an aluminum crank handle, needle nose pan, low head, casting date under the serial number pad, six fluted oil filler cap engine. I can see the screw imprints of the casting date plate. And I thought my eyes were bad. You guys still driving on the road? Scary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 08:12 pm:

The engine is not a generator type casting. There is no bulge on the timing cover to accommodate the generator.
There are traces of the engine number on the pad shown in Eric's posting. From the left are the foot of a 1, the lower part of a 7,skip one to most of a 5, the shadow of another digit and then the foot of another 1.

Royce shows where some of the casting dates were placed. On late teens motors in Australia, casting dates were low on the block, near the pan rail, below no4 cylinder.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 08:39 pm:

Hi all. Great discussions here. I really appreciate everyone's help. There are no/ were no casting numbers by the arrow in Royce's pic. It does make sense that since this was a NEW motor that the owner attempted to self stamp, which was weak.

Once I get it inside I'll get a good look and report back.

Again I really appreciate everyone's guidance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

The engine number pad is smaller, maybe 2.5" long, so you are correct about the nonstarter block, smaller boss for early 1916 or earlier. That means that valve galley is two piece, I guess the picture angle makes it look like one piece. Sorry guys wrong ID.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 09:16 pm:

Look at the title and look at the pad - I would think you could decipher the numbers regardless of how shallow they are.

The casting date that Royce is talking about is part of the sand mold and cast into the block. It is not something that is stamped by hand into the block.

Example of one style of casting date below:

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 09:40 pm:

Thanks,Erik. Thanks for the example pic. What I'm telling you is there is no embossed raised number in that location on this block.

I'll check title.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 09:49 pm:

I have a 27 frame with motor on it that's been sitting getting rained on for forty years I bought for parts and the only number on it was raised to the left or toward the front of the car of the serial pad and it says 15 w and nothing else. I haven't been able to figure it out either. Big ford letter ford on the head. I assume the head is late model but no idea about the block. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Tuesday, November 22, 2016 - 10:27 pm:

Look to the right of the serial number pad. Now, look down to where there is a crescent shaped 'bite'out of that area. Look more closely. That IS the head of the serial number plate screw impression. Removal of the inlet and the gasket will show it up.
I financed my T hobby by finding and selling early parts,and getting them into the hands of those that would appreciate them.
An old man told me there was a complete early engine in his junkpile.I finally found it, under the remains of a wood threshing machine. I couldn't see it all at first. It was laying on its side manifolds up. When I saw the serial number, I got to cutting wood and steel and after one good day and part of a second I had it out. Ron Knepper got that one, and it went to Hershey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 02:28 am:

What I will point out, the engine under the old separator was a '12,with the serial number on the right side. Just behind the timing gear,just above the Cam bearing retaing screw. Late 70,000 range, IIRC. at one time I remembered who Knepper said got it.Was one of the prominent old collectors.I hope it is in a high point show car, as it was laying on some roof tin that kept it out of the mud out and it was protected pretty well by the crap it was under,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 - 07:18 am:

Photos taken with better light might help a lot.

The block has pressed in core plugs on the passenger side, making it no earlier than 1914. The serial number if original will tell the tale, you just need to scrub it with some Scotchbrite to see it clearly.


Here are some shots of a 1914 Canadian block, with the blank area where the Made in USA would be inserted if the casting were destined for a USA built car. Does your block say Made in USA below the Ford script?



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 05:49 pm:

Hi All, I got the T home today and took off the water outlet and cleaned and sanded and even did a pencil rubbing and can't seem to make out the numbers. Also attaching a pic of the two piece valve covers and the frost plugs. The don't appear to be the screw-in kind. Also note there are not casting numbers to the right side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 05:53 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 05:58 pm:

What is the number to the left? Are there more numbers there. The 19 looks like part of a casting date although I have never seen one in that location.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:00 pm:

Hi Val, Just the 19. no other digits.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:05 pm:

Don't use sandpaper - if the numbers are shallow, you will just make it worse.

It looks like there is still a lot of crap on the number pad. Use a stiff wire brush and/or putty knife to clean it up.

In an earlier picture you posted, there appeared to be some remnants of numbers. Hopefully, you didn't sand them off. As suggested earlier, look at the serial number on the title and look at the pad and see if you can decipher the pad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:18 pm:

Jake

Seems the serial pad has been obliterated by someone over the years, note the deep scratches and just rusty area now. Probably never get the metal stamped numerals to appear again. Some have said an acid mixture is used by police to determine obliterated stamps, but on rusty Model T block, may or may not work.



Best can tell based on the length of the stamp pad, (Ford blocks got longer and longer stamp pads as production ran into the millions) is your pad is approx. late teens.



Smaller stamp pad of a 1914 block.



Stamp pad of a 1917


Various types of dates raised in the casting mold



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:30 pm:

I see remnants of numbers in both photos. I definitely see a seven and a five. If I were there in person, I would take a work light and shine it at different angles. I would also get up close with a magnifying glass.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but I think that comparing the serial number on the title and then looking at the pad may help determine the numbers. Even if they are very faint, I would think you could see enough to determine if they match the title.

Again - don't use sandpaper. Use a stiff wire brush and a putty knife and clean the pad. There might be dirt and rust in the shallow imprint of the numbers themselves. Also, clean/brush/scrape the area to the right of the outlet where the casting date is located.

I see some numbers below…..

1

2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:41 pm:

Based on a little photo manipulation...we can draw out 5 of 6 numbers on what needed to be a 7 sequence number if factory stamped for the features we see.

1 7 _ 3 8 1

This would be a December '12 if a real whole number, which it can't be based on the motor features. It could be a re-stamp of a later engine and the contrast photo to me leaves the re-stamp option open...

So the other approach is it needs a number in front of it probably. My guess based on features would be a 4 which would make it possibly a July 1920 engine?






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:44 pm:

you guys are quite talented at this, wow. Good info. Thanks!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:47 pm:

I posted a pic of a metal club show/meet tag on the car from 1953 on my other thread. Seems this car has been around for a while. Hoping someone may have some info. I am researching the guy that built the car in his basement, he is now deceased. Maybe the family has some paperwork or photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 07:02 pm:

The casting date is above the serial number pad on this one. I don't recall having seen that before. I found a picture, but can't post from this phone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 07:07 pm:

Jake:

My dad is a charter member of the Minnesota Region of the AACA.

He has a professional, panoramic photo of the cars at that June 1953 meet in St. Peter. I also asked him to look in "Northern Lights," the club's publication, to see if anything was written about the meet after it was held.

He looked at the photo and said your car is not in it. When I get a chance, I'll scan it an post it on the forum.

Also, he does not recognize your car or the name of the previous owner Earl Aldrich who had Pioneer plate 802.

Unfortunately, my dad did not attend that meet which is rather ironic because he had just graduated from Gustavus Adolphus College in St. Peter. Instead, he had organized a class trip to Sweden and spent that summer in Europe.

You can still chase down relatives of Earl Aldrich. His son Robert passed away in 2013 and his obituary lists a wife, three children and seven grandchildren. It's possible that they may have family photos albums with pictures of the car. Also, I would ask Robert's widow if there are any relatives in Rush City that might be familiar with the car.

http://www.argusobserver.com/obituaries/robert-e-aldrich-bob/article_10f56e46-7b 26-11e3-8867-0019bb2963f4.html

(Message edited by Erik_johnson on November 27, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 07:08 pm:

George the block is a pre - 1919 block so that is not possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 07:11 pm:

Erik, I was just pulling up their info in Rush City, that is the path I am going down as well, not just for the engine, but also for the general history of the car. I tried FB a couple of days ago and left several messages with Aldrich.

It is amazing that there were photos from that meet. wow. great record keeping.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 07:26 pm:

Get on the telephone.

Try this - Crystal Aldrich - Earl Aldrich's daughter-in-law - telephone number:

https://www.advancedbackgroundchecks.com/crystal+aldrich/103833590


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 07:40 pm:

Thanks Erik, yep been calling this evening to a few numbers. that number now belongs to a guy named Mark, lol. I do appreciate it. I have located most of the kids on FB and have messaged them as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 11:38 pm:

Jake, George is seeing a little more of the numbers than I am. Just get a sharp tool, like a scriber, and follow the remnants you can see to see if the rest of the number is there. It's not rocket surgery!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 12:43 am:

If anybody is out there, I found the type casting date location for this engine. I can not resize pictures on this phone. Would someone PLEASE PM ME so I can send it for you to post? We can put to bed when this sonofabitch was cast, provided it can be read.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 07:59 am:

Royce,

Sorry, you are absolutely correct!

Me bad...I thought I read it also had a gen blanking plate...I just re-looked, it doesn't...

That doesn't change the picture. What do others 'see'?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 03:09 pm:

It seems that my incorrect statement from Nov 22 regarding the valve and timing covers on this engine block and its year, which I corrected later that same day, is still causing problems. I am sorry for the confusion my era caused. The engine block looks to be from 1914 to 1916 or maybe early 1917 but only time will tell as it gets looked over more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 12:29 pm:

Jim E sent these photos and suggested that you look below the serial number for a casting date. This is a rare aberration found only in spring 1912 or thereabouts:



Also this photo of a casting date where the serial number normally would be, typical of mid 1909 - mid 1912:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Mayne on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

Thanks Royce, I looked and nothing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 02:20 pm:

If you can't figure out the stampings due to wear, I'd personally make it smooth and re stamp it to whatever year you're looking for that's correct to the block/motor. sometimes the numbers are just too far gone to be sure. Re stamping would give you nice clear numbers which could be helpful if, God forbid, the car ever gets stolen and you need to ID it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

Did you try Erik's suggestion of comparing the number on the title with the numbers visible on the block? If those match, the title should tell you the missing digits.


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