I know there are plenty of wheel hounds out there, like myself, and we all have our favorite style. So, let's see them! Let's see your accessory wood, steel spoke, wire, disk, and spring wheels.
Are they in your collection or on your car?
How do they ride?
Are they reliable?
Are they original, rebuilt, or reproduction?
What style and size rim and tire?
Were they converted, or originally made to fit a T?
How many different variations were there?
Do you have any original sales ads?
My personal weakness is the #3 Buffalo Wire Wheel (Wire Wheel Corp of America) fitted with 21" snap ring rims.
The speedster's wheels have not been rebuilt, just blasted and painted as well as the snap rings being nickel plated. While the hubs are very nice originals, the hub nuts are reproduction aluminum non locking wing knock offs.
After 10+ years of borderline abusive use, the wheels are holding up quite well considering their age. However, I am starting to notice a few loose spokes here and there. Replacing the spokes will be necessary eventually, but not for a while.
Despite all the stories about how Buffalo's like to roam, I have never had a wheel fall off or even loosen. I check the hub nuts for tightness periodically, but not obsessively. In my experience, a very reliable, low maintenance accessory.
I've got an original set of Pascos on my Canadian RHD 11 T. They look great to me. With the 2 nut system I haven't had them loosen off at all over the 1500 miles I toured this summer. The picture was taken in Couer D'Lane on an HCCA tour in September. By the way the white tires are 2 years old and are holding up well.
I'm a disc guy myself - first photo are the Michelin non-demountable clinchers on my wife's Fire Chief's car and the second photo are the wheels on my Racer, which as near as I can determine were manufactured by Motor Utilities Co. - they also made "salesman sample" boxes.
30 X 3 1/2" Hayes demountables are my favorites.
These are my Simplex wheels. I had them rebuilt at Dayton Wire Wheel, then finished them myself with rattle can Rustoleum.
All very nice wheels everyone. I not sure that I've ever seen the Hayes demountables with 23" clincher rims, just 21" split rims. Very neat! Also the discs on Steve's speedster are pretty slick looking... Do those bolt to the wood wheel hubs?
Dave, can you tell us a little about how the Simplex locking mechanism works? I saw an original ad that said something about a quarter turn to lock them.
Kevin the 21" split rim Hayes wheels were factory optional on Canadian Model T's from about 1925. The 30 X 3 1/2 Hayes wheels were aftermarket only, available around 1920. They are really nice because they use regular Ford Hayes demountable rims, the same ones that Hayes was selling to Ford at the time.
The hubs are/were riveted to the wheels, Kevin - fronts still are factory riveted but I had new rear hubs machined (before I knew of your expertise) and installed the larger brake drums.
Jeff, I am curious about your 21" Hayes wheels. I have never seen 36 spoke types. All those with which I am familiar are 48 spoke. This is one time when more is better.
Can you tell me if the outer edge of the felloe is rolled in? Do the rims have 'feet' on the lugs which go in over the edge of the felloe? Is there a relief to accommodate the foot on the lug? Are the lugs branded with Hayes stamped in them?
I have a pair of 21" front wheels. They are 48 spoke. The felloe has a rolled lip on the outside, which is turned outwards.
I am curious to know more about them.
Allan from down under.
Pasco 30x3.5 and Dayton 30x3.5 and Dayton 26X3 Clincher
Here are the Disteel wheels Im using on the speedster project. Like Steve, I also like disc wheels. Also shown are the special 3 bolt hubs and what is believed to be the correct hub caps. There is no proof (yet) that they are the correct hubcap, but there are just too many of that style caps on Disteel wheels to just be coincidence.
detachable lock ring style rim. I have finally found a fifth rim
This is the hub spacer to fit to wooden wheel hubs
the lugs are "loose" style and say USW on them. I have had to cast some as I didn't get 16 with the set of wheels
I have only seen one other set and they were missing the rims and hub spacers
Stock model T are a good choice
Donnie - those caps are identical to my Racer's - Red Dot - I've seen advertising in the old parts catalogs showing those as an accessory. I have another set on the shelf. I'll look for some ads for the Disteel & see if I can distinguish the cap type.
Good thread. My speedster currently has Pascoe wheels. I like the look and they have never been loose, although the previous owner lost a wheel once. I had a set of 30 X 3 1/2 buffalo wheels when I took it to Kanab. After the week of touring noticed several spokes had broken. I don't know if they were too loose or too tight. This winter I am changing to lock ring 21 inch buffalo mostly to get a better tire.
I have Bud wire wheels on our 13 touring and am very happy with them. Took several years of gathering Bud wire wheel parts before I had enough to make up a set. All the wheels have new spokes. The Bud wire wheels have a good locking method to keep the brass hub caps from coming loose. The wheels stay tight which is what you want.
A rapid response is needed here ... I just stumbled upon a wire wheel that looks much
like the Simplex wheels above. No obvious markings. Has a little scale inside, but overall
in pretty good shape.
How to ID ? Reasonable price to pay ? I figure someone out there needs this wheel.
Burger, when it comes to the knock off type wire wheels, usually one look at the interface between the wheel center and hub is all it takes to ID brand. Of course this is not always true in the case of pin drive type wheels (Dayton, Houk, Hayes). These will require a closer look to determine brand.
Buffalo/House, Phelps, Rudge Witworth, Simplex, Budd, and I'm sure others, all had drastically specific drive mechanisms. Now keep in mind that these companies were supplying more than just Ford owners. There were several size ranges of wheel centers and they could be laced into any size rim. So take a measurin stick with you and don't just assume that because it's laced into a 23" clincher rim it fits a Ford.
I don't have any Simplex wheels so I can't help you with any specific measurements, but I do have a pic of the inside of a Simplex wheel center.
I have this set of 5 27 Ford wire wheels that have had 16 inch rims welded to them. The old tyres still on the rims are 500-16.
Windows_Photo_Gallery (1.9 k)
24 inch wire wheels, 6 lug. Need any information about these, what they are.
I'm going to say that the holes are just for drive. The wheels are held on by a large centre retaining "nut device ". I've seen similar centers before
Rims are measured this way. I think you will find that your wire wheel is a 23" for 30x3 1/2 clincher tires.
Looks like a #4 Houk center in that wheel, probably Overland. Larger wheel center than was offered for Model T Fords but often adapted to the T.
Is the Houk based on the detail of the drive holes?
A little OT due to the application, but here is a neat series on Houk wire wheel restoration. Each picture in the left margin is a link to its own detailed section and text in the main part of the screen.
Houk drive holes went thru an evolution during the years of their manufacture. They started with just plain holes, these were no doubt found to wear faster than if they added to the wear surface with a ring around each hole, like the Dayton pindrive 26x3 wheels in previous picture.
Last they changed to just 2 crescents as in Galen's pictures. This provided the same wear ability as a full circle but was probably easier to make.
Dayton made the same change from plain holes to circles but did not continue to crescents.
Late Pasco wheels (2 pictures above) have a ring around the hole for better wear but it is toward the hub not visible like when it is upset toward the hubcap.
Les and Layden, Thank you for you comments. I will go remeasure the rim. I have 4 or 5 of these wheels. Would they be equivalent to model T wires in value. I have not a clue to their value. Thanks again guys. G
CONDITION of the rim with clinchers makes a big difference in value!! Any hubs or caps?
Les, The rims seem to be in good condition. I have only looked at the top 2 wheels. The rest are buried. I haven't found any hubs or cap yet. They may still be under a pile of t parts. I did run across some wrenches for wheel removal. If I find some I will let you know.
Galen, those look a lot like my Pasco's
I picked up this mate to my 23 and 26 about 2 months ago when Teresa spied this 20 roadster at a used car lot. The Pasco wheels caught our attention first. I haven't had much time to work on the car yet but it drives well and seems like it will need minimal work to make it a reliable tourer.
The Pasco's have a wrench that fits both the outer cap and the inner nut. Fortunately, a wrench came with the car but it has no name on it. I'd be interested in finding a wrench that has Pasco's name on it. Maybe one is in the bottom of Galen's pile.
Here's my Dayton project. Dentil drive, 66 spoke. I had 3 wheels and knew I'd never find another 66 spoke center as most are 72 spoke. So I made a drawing and had a new one made. (Too big for my lathe.)
As far as I have seen, Buffalo made wheel centers in #3, #4, #4.5, #5, and #6 sizes, and maybe even more. Wheels typical to our Fords as well as the majority of the wheels I have seen are B series. B series seems to relate to the "Courregated drive" and the ratchet locking hub nut. There was also other series Buffalo wire wheels as well as disk wheels, maybe someone else can share pics.
Inside of a B-3 Buffalo/House wheel center typical for a T. Courregated drive is approximately 4" across.
Here is a B-5. Courregated drive is approximately 6" across.
Noel, Dan Marek in Tacoma, Washington borrowed my original Pasco wrench a year or so ago to have some patterns made and have some cast. I have a wrench that Lewis Rector whittled out of bar stock and years after I bought my Pasco wheels stumbled on an original wrench in a box of stuff at one of my auctions.
Kevin, the Simplex wheels have left-hand threads for their hubs that are held in place with a set-screw that is removed/installed through the side of the center of the wheel. You can see the hole for the set screw in this photo:
The hubs themselves have three parts that fit together:
Here's the three pieces assembled:
And the hub assembly threads into the wheel center via the left-hand threads, then the whole wheel is mounted using the inside threads in the hub center. The set screw is installed into one of the gaps in the outside threaded ring in the hub.
When removing the wheel from the axle, the two spring tabs that ride inside the threaded ring are compressed inwards to relieve the tension and allow the hub nut to be turned off the axle thread.
To remove the hub from the wheel, after removing the set screw, you need a special tool (I had one made) to engage the two small indents on the threaded ring of the hub, and turn it out using the left-hand threads. You can see the tab indent in this photo:
And here's the tool I made:
Noel, Could you post a picture of your wrench that fits your pasco wheels? I have a number of wrenches. If I locate a tool with pasco on it I will let you know. Thanks for identifying my wheels Noel. They appear to be identical to mine. Nice roadster!
Unlike many purists, I like wire wheels on T's (as well as accessory type wheels) so long as period correct. With that in mind is anyone running a set of spring type wheels like Mike Robison posted above?
Still no pictures of any Phelps wheels...? I know there is at least one set out there.... and with new rear hubs no less.
Anyone have any Houk wheels in #3 to fit a T? The ones pictured above are #4 centers, fairly common as hens teeth go. I know many #4 centers have been adapted to fit T's before, but does anyone have the real T deal?
Here is a hubcap for #3 Houk and a wheel ( extra holes where it was bolted to a wood wheel hub).
Pre 1917 as it says Houk manufacturing rather than Wire Wheel Corp. They are all I have so are for sale.
Layton, I had not heard the exact year before, but I had come across this ad a while back. In the bottom right corner it clearly reads "successors to Houk Manufacturing Co".
Wheel retention device
The threaded stud and the three sided spring clip hold the trim hub cap (that NO one seems to have a original one of
That's an interesting difference between the Ford sized wheel center and the next size up. I have a set of Phelps wheels with a larger wheel center but still have a 23" clincher rim. And the wheel retaining plate is threaded on the OD to attach the hub cap, where the Ford sized wheel uses a center stud. Does the spring tab retain the hub cap somehow? I was under the impression it was an anti rotation device for the retaining plate bolts.
Note that the front hub does not incorporate a drive spline to engage the wheel... NOT a good design for front brakes!
You are probably right about the spring clips
Galen, Here's a picture of my Pasco wrench. Sometime in the past it has had a repair and reinforcement.
Does anybody have any Buffalo disk wheels?? I have seen a couple of hubcaps along the way... but never the wheels to go with them.
Also, we heard from Les V. about a set of Budd wire wheels, how bout some pics?
Randy, Thanks for the picture of the wrench. It seems to me that I have one now that I looked at your picture. Now I have to locate it. Again thanks.
Galen, let me know if you find it as I may be interested .
Galen, let me know if you find it as I may be interested.
Based on the best information I have managed to glean from original advertising
Yes you are correct in that the front hubs don't have the splines. So it looks like I will end up having to make a pair so that I can add front brakes
We have Dayton Dental Lock, Rim Laced Wheels on our Flat Tail Race Car.
I have searched the web and contacted Dayton Wheel for information about these wheels with limited success.
Does anyone know when these wheels were manufactured?
Is there a code stamped in the wheel or Denatl Mount that would tell me something?
Does anyone know where I could get an original sales ad or brochure?
Are they in your collection or on your car? Yes, Flat Tail Race Car
How do they ride? Rigid
Are they reliable? Very
Are they original, rebuilt, or reproduction? Original
What style and size rim and tire? 16 Inch, Wire Knock Off
Were they converted, or originally made to fit a T? Special Hub
How many different variations were there? Don't Know
Do you have any original sales ads? No
Bob- your Dayton wheels have #10 centers in them- these are the smallest size that Dayton made. The next size is a #20. Your caps are the later style that have the cast-in text. Earlier caps had a Chem etched round medallion held in place with drive screws. Nice looking car by the way.
How are things??
Gary Schreiber- There is a T guy here in Spokane that has a full set on His T. I have been told those wheels were used by a cement company here in town. Many of their wagons had them on them. Many have popped up around here over the years, and that might be the reason. I found my pair on CL a couple years back and am keeping my eyes peeled for another pair.
I have a set of Dayton dental drive 16" drop center wheels like on #17
as well as a pair of 16" wide ones. I also have a
set on my hill climber for the last 50 years. They
are the best of the Dayton wheels made.
I have a whole pile of #20 Dayton dental drive wire wheel for sale if anyone is interested
Seeing all those complicated ways of fitting various wheels to various hubs, I am inclined to agree with Royce. Hayes demountable-at-the felloe wheels with standard T rims make perfect sense.
Allan from down under.
McLaren's on the speedster
If anyone has any Dayton #10 front hubs to fit a Model T please contact me by PM.
How's about some good pics of the Pasco hubs, wheel nuts, and lock nuts? Do both the nuts run on the same thread? Is one right hand and the other left hand thread? Did I hear right, in that these hubs bolt to a stock wood wheel hub, as sort of an adapter?
Layden beat me to it with better pictures. My hubs appear to be reproductions with the large taper welded to the flange and tube sections. The inside nut is 2 3/4 12 tpi rht. It has a half inch shoulder that centers the outer wheel center. The outer nut is 2 1/2 12 tpi rht. All the hubs are the same and bolt to a t hub with the bolts shown in Layden's post. My wheel nuts are chromed but I have seen them brass. I don't have the Pasco wrench, my speedster came with two Houk wrenches.
These are from a Frontenac Catalog reproduction offered by Langs https://www.modeltford.com/item/FRT1.aspx
The No.262 set are pin drive I believe. The No.263 dental drive are illustrated. Note the emblem in cap center and the 1925 date ( I believe they came out in 1924). The 20" drop center are believed to be first rim size offered followed by 20 and 21" lock ring, as the years went by smaller rim sizes were offered. Dental drives were so popular that they were adapted to later axles and continued to be used long after factory manufacture ceased. 15 and 16" rims are commonly stamped with a post WWII date code, late 1940s and early 1950s. Those were most likely older wheel centers with new rims. Many hubs are reworked earlier pieces and no longer fit the 5 digit axle designation the factory stamped on them.
Still waiting for those Budd wire wheel pics...
How bout some Spranger wire wheels?? We haven't even heard this name yet. Must be a rare bird... Has anyone ever seen one in the wild?? Or should we just file these along with the Bigfoot, Yeti, and Chupacabra??
I sold John Danuser two Spranger wire wheels several years ago. I also had a set of French made wheels that came from Robb Wolfe in Calgary, they went to Australia to have hubs made and be mounted. Typical, the front hubs were there but not the rear. Photos............I think I lost them in the computer crash years back.
My Pasco wheels were bought by Lewis Rector in 1942 and run on his 15 roadster for the next 45 years. I found an original wrench after 20 years of looking for one.
my new to me buffalo wires with demountable rims. they seem redundant witht the quick change hubs, but they are in good shape.
a view from the other side. front hub is in the foreground.
all four on the car.
Maybe my picture can get more attention here:
What wheels are these? 6 nuts for mounting
Paso? Center cap seems too small.
Note that we are in Europe (Denmark) so it may be en European make as I doubt there where that many US aftermarket wheels to buy in Europe back then.
Merry Christmas. I manufacture the McLaren wire wheels now. That spoke pattern and cap are not McLaren. I do use the 6 bolt wood wheel bolt pattern because you use a standard front and rear wood wheel hub with McLaren wheels. They are patterned after a period accessory wheel called Universal Wire Wheel. All of the wheels you guys have are incredible and truly some of the nicest examples of craftsmanship and engineering from a by gone era. I would be proud to have anyone of those sets!
Love the many-spoked Pascos and Buffalos. My '27 will keep it's original wood-spoked wheels though. They are in good shape, and I don't want my T to be mistaken for an A
Eric- not sure why someone would lace demountable fellows into Buffalo hubs except they wanted 21" wheels and could not find any flat base rims. You are correct that it's a redundant setup. I thought they were a set of Hayes when I first looked at the photo and before I saw the center.
But. . . hey, they look great! Do you know any history on them?
Thought I would post some pics of some original wheel centers compared to the Minocci reproductions. As I understand it, the Minocci wheels were available for about 40 years beginning sometime in the 60's.
The first two pictures are of an original wheel center. They are made of formed steel sheet and are only machined to trim the edges and drill the spoke holes. All internal radii are crisp and clean, and external radii are long and flow nicely. The couregated drive is a formed feature, and each of the 10 lumps should be smooth and uniform
Minocci's wheels were made with a cast wheel center. You will notice the the external radii are sharp and the internal radii are much larger. The obvious characteristic is the casting parting lines on the inside of the wheel center and the as-cast couregated drive
These are accessory wheels that were available for use on a 1915 Monroe. The hubs may not work on a Model T, but the wheels will mount on a Model T hub. I would part with these wheels. Ed
A Monroe must be pretty light. A 40 spoke wheel is pretty sparse. Is it a 30 X 3 or 3 1/2 tire?
Don't think I would put it on a touring car, maybe a really bare speedster.
same as Kevins original just respoked also looking for Dayton #10 hubs, also need two 17 inch lock rings have 18 inch to trade