Push away from the table and help me with my stuck valve.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Push away from the table and help me with my stuck valve.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

Happy Thanksgiving. Lions up 7 - 0, but it's early yet. Working on my 26/27 engine as Jane is out of town with her 96 year old mother and it's just my sone and I. Turkey on the smoker, so don't fault me for ignoring family for the T. She's part of the family as well.
Initial start up in my lifetime resulting in discovering 3 and 4 cyl were dead. Examination revealed exhaust valves stuck in the open position on both cyls. Soaked valve stems and got 4 cyl to relase and work properly. Exhaust valve on 3 cyl will tap down, but when it comes up, it stays up. Tap it down lightly and it goes down, but when the crank pushes it up, it stays up.

Before we break out the 100 year old valve spring compressor and try to remove the valve, is this probably just a gunked up valve and I need to keep soaking with ATF and tapping and cranking? Or just bite the bullet and pull the valve and see if the stem is bent? I'm presuming the former with fingers crossed.

What's the score?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 02:10 pm:

Tap and crank, repeat as needed. Probably just rust holding it open. Unlikely to be bent. Pushing down through the spark plug hole using a bent screwdriver with ample lube directed at the stem is likely to do the job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 02:41 pm:

Lions lead by a field goal.

We got the head pushed off to the side, not completely off and tap the valve head down with a wood block and then crank it back up. Always stays up and always needs a tap or two with the hamnmer to get it back down. Then we apply some more ATF and move on to something else.

Fingers still crossed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 03:11 pm:

Robert,
You are this deep into it, it really isn't much work at this point to take the valve out, polish the rust off and be done with it. Might be a good idea on the other one too; you'd hate to put it back together and have it happen again. Probably take less time than pushing it up and down multiple times.
Then get that head back on and go for a T-Day drive!!!
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 03:37 pm:

Niver pulled a valve before. Got the spring compressor, but what little I have read, talks about driving out guides and special tools and punches and drifts, etc. Kinda scared us away from doing that. But the tapping and cranking isn't gaining much. Seems as tight this afternoon as it did this morning.

Have to look into how to remove the valve and clean them up right as you suggest.

Lions just tied it up with a field goal!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

Usually, a little oil from above, cranking, and pushing the valve down will free them up. But sometimes? It doesn't. Maybe a few more tries? Maybe not. Pulling the head and valves, cleaning them, and maybe a little fine sand paper will be the only way.
They could have been too tight when installed. But sitting a few years can allow minor rust to form on stems and guides. Usually, that will work off in a few minutes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 04:37 pm:

Robert, Model T's do not have valve guides as such. Ford just used the cast iron. Compress the spring and retainer, pull the pin. Then work the valve out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 05:01 pm:

Yep. If you already have the head off, just pull the valve and clean it up. Compress the spring and you should see a little pin that goes through the stem to retain the spring and keeper. It's a pretty simple arrangement. Clean em up and put her back together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 06:28 pm:

Well, at least the Lions won. I'm through for the night. Pulled keeper and spring and used various pieces of scrap metal and wood and tools and washers and sockets, etc., and the crank to get the stuck valve out.
We got it up as far as we can from below, no more stem showing, it's up atoub an inch above the block and it ain't budging another MM. Hate to tap it back down and start all over, but it sure feels like it's more than just "stuck".
Now that I know there are no guides to screw up, we'll figure some sort of gear puller or something in the morning and try to get it out. Stem feels rough for the first 1/2 inch or so from the top then I feel smooth stem. I have a felling this valve was stuck in the open position for a while.
Pry bars and claw hammers on the valve head are not budging it and I don't want to mess up the set so I'm leaving the vice grips in the tool box for now. Left it soaking in ATF and MMO and we'll see what happens in the morning.
Don't know if this valve is salvageable once we get it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim williams Baldwinsville NY. on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

Robert this works for me gently clamp vise grips on the valve
Spray wd or whatever on the stem then tap and turn the valve
As it's going down you will be able to spin the valve around
By the time you reach the bottom and it will come out
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

Just for clarification, the Lions didn't win, the Vikings lost. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 07:05 pm:

Push it back down far enough to see if you have any burrs where the keeper pin goes through, or maybe the end has been mushroomed a bit.
It does help to turn the valve while moving it.
You should have the spring out of the way by now too, so if you push it back down, you can polish the shaft with some 1,000 grit paper. That way it should pull out much easier when you get it up a few inches.
PS--If it's a two piece valve, then change them out NOW! Easy to spot, the two piece usually have two holes in the head for the valve grinding tool.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 07:22 pm:

Just a thought..... Are these 2 piece valves? A photo is worth a 1000 words as Kodak used to say.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 08:27 pm:

Turning as advised above. You might even see if it's bent by doing that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 08:45 pm:

I suggest diesel oil under the valve head directly into the valve chamber. Let it sit for a while then do the turn the motor over then tap the valve down a few times and it should be fine,

You might consider a bit of diesel fuel under all valves before you put the head back on as insurance. If you don't have any diesel use Marvel Mystery oil almost equal to diesel.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 08:52 pm:

We've soaked ALL valves in MMO while they are up and we may pull them all and check them our. I have read much reference about the two piece valve, but have no idea how to tell if mine are those. I can take a photo tomorrow. The valve head appears to have a small dimple or indent in the center and the valve stem, to me, feels like after the top of the valve it has a bit of a neck on it and then a slightly smaller thinner shaft. But until I get this one actually out, I don't know how to tell if two piece.

If I go with new valves, just get a set and put them in the same holes? I presume hone or clean the heck out of them prior. Do they come with new seats, springs, etc? I guess since I'm this far into it, now is the time. Esspecially if they are two piece.

TO THE INTERRNET!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steven miller on Thursday, November 24, 2016 - 08:58 pm:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/644804.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 05:17 am:

Robert, two piece valves should be replaced, but it's probably going to be a bigger job than just dropping them in the hole. Good chance they will be too long and need the end of the stems ground. Also, you will at the very least need to lap them to make them seat. They really should be ground along with the seats to do it right. The engine probably has non adjustable lifters, meaning valve clearance is set by grinding the end of the stem. Adjustable lifters are available, but the valves will likely still have to have their stems ground for the valve to close even with the lifter adjusted all the way down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Friday, November 25, 2016 - 09:26 am:

Yeah, I watched the video of the guy with the special measuring tool timing the valves to the pistons and grinding off thousandsth from the stems to get them properly timed.
Sounds like a nice wintery long weekend project with the space heaters on in the garage and some college football on the radio project.

But, first, I got to get this stuck valve out and see what the heck I got and go from there.

Thinking of using drill bit or allen key and use the crankshaft to push up from the bottom. The slow pressure seems to be working to get it out this far.


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