I guess my schooling starts

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: I guess my schooling starts
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Glenn Fisher III on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 02:49 pm:

I removed my rear wheel this morning to see about cleaning and adjusting the parking brakes. I found the driver side (in USA) axle is peeling away at the keyway like an onion. You can just see the crack at the bottom of the keyway. I moved it with a set of calipers when I was trying to figure out why the key was so loose.

I am curious about the stamp "Ford X" in the keyway. Is this normal?Peeling axle keyway


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 04:22 pm:

It's no surprise finding the Ford logo there. It shows up on a lot of parts. Looks like you have an oil leak. When you replace the axle shaft it should be part a a rebuild that includes new seals, thrust washer, etc.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 04:28 pm:

Does that "onion" go all the way around the axle? If so, it is a shim used to space the drum farther away from the backing plate. I would be more concerned about what appears to be a scored area around the diameter of the axle near the backing plate. That area is a potential broken axle at an area where the wheel would fall off it broke. This is one of the situations where you could tighten the nut very tight and it could last a long time, depending on how much driving you do. But it could be time to look for a better axle shaft to replace it.

If you drive in very little traffic on fairly flat surfaces, it might be ok for a while, but if you are on hilly places or in traffic where you need to do a lot of stopping and starting, it would be better to look for a better shaft. You might also take off the other wheel and see how good the opposite side is because it is not too hard to replace the axle shafts when it is apart, but to do them at the same time would save a lot of labor taking things apart and putting together. Also check the thrust washers for bronze. If the babbit washers are still in place they should be replaced with bronze.

If you don't already have the book on the rear axle, it would be a good time to invest in one. It has step by step instructions on how to rebuild the rear axle. You can do it with simple tools. The few parts which might need an hydrolic press can be farmed out. Someone in your local area could tell you who has one.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Glenn Fisher III on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 05:24 pm:

Hi Steve, I watched allot of your videos on you tube and found them very informative. I think pulling the rear end and doing a complete inspection is in order. As Norman suggested a rebuild is warrented. I know the rear end hasn't been touched in over 50 years so it's time. I did just by chance pick up the book on T ford front and rear axles never knowing if I would need it.

I'm find myself excited about what I am about to attempt. I will update this post on the progress.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James G Fisher III Peachtree City, GA on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 12:20 pm:

Update 12-6-16

Well I finally got the rear end out. I guess is should scare me that only 6 ninety-two year old bolts hold it in. I followed the book step by step and it was easy.

When my strength returns I will break it down and clean everything for inspection.

Note: the jack stands in the picture are rated for 3000 Chinese pounds, I'm hoping it's the same in America... Ha HaPulling rear end


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

As you reassemble the rear end make sure to get it back together the same way you tore it apart because if you don't reverse will be forward and forward will be reverse. You don't want to get in and drive it thru the front of your shop as you push the reverse pedal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 01:46 pm:

Good advice! Its easy to put things together with the ring gear on the wrong side. Its happened more than once down through the years. I did it when I was putting the rear end together for my 21 Touring. I decided to check things out one more time before I bolted the 2 halves together. I had the rear axle book from the MTFCA and noticed something didn't look right. Glad I looked that one last time!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 03:43 pm:

James,

The keyway is spread open like that due to the hub being run loose on the axle for many miles. (I'll bet the nut wasn't tight when you removed the wheel.) As you seem to already realize, that axle is done for.

BTW, that arrangement you've got holding the car up looks scary to me. Please be careful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 03:55 pm:

Pretty normal encounter. Don't get discouraged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 08:34 pm:

James,

It looks like you have figured out how to drop the axle etc. so you are off to a good start.

I agree with Jerry -- your stands that are holding the rear of the car up do not look very substantial. I usually like to leave the wheels on my car (rear wheels already broken loose, but the axle nuts finger tight to hold the wheels on). Chock it. Jack it up. Place the jack stands etc. where I want them. Lower the jack(s) so all the weight is on the jack stands etc. And then I shake the car to make sure it will not fall. Ok if you are former line backer don't get carried away -- but give it some fair side and front and back loads. It should stay stationary. If it should fall at that point -- the wheel are still on the car.

Just looking at the single photo you posted, I wonder how secure the rear of the car is? Can it be moved easily to the left or right? Looking at the dolly you constructed to roll the rear axle out from under the car -- that dolly appears really rugged. If your stands holding up the rear of the are of similar solid construction -- then that is great.

Steve Jelf's initial stands to hold his frame up so he could pull the rear axle also raised some questions. Primarily about the same issue -- that they might tip over too easily. After the comments he made some changes to the way he welded the braces on that made it stronger and he was happy with the results. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/172263.html?1290824949 and also http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/660345.html?1468895106 for comments on stands that work for supporting the car when you remove the rear axle.

While we cannot remove all risk, we don't want to unknowingly take some that could be fatal.

And if your stands are solid -- please let us know more about how they are constructed. Many of us are also looking at that same job in the future.

Again, good luck with your project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 11:08 pm:

If the axle was a good one,a new key way could be cut in it and then used.I agree ,that one is likely toast.They make good project metal for bushing drivers,etc. When you are ready to crack it open, do so with a small pan under it or you may have a real mess on your floor. I let them drain a day or so in the warm shop. Once all the bearing sleeves are out I take them out side and stand them up on two fire bricks.I put several wads of scrunched- up news paper under the pumkin. I then pour gas down through the tube ,get back and throw a match in it.Let it burn out good (repeat as necessary)Then I take them to the sand blaster people and tell them to do the inside and outside as well. They come back looking like new.Blow them out and I coat inside with Electrical varnish. Then you are ready to rebuild.The heat and fire will get rid of all the old 600 wt greese. Been working for many years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James G Fisher III Peachtree City, GA on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 12:53 pm:

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to need it. I couldn't sleep last night thinking 3000 pounds in China is not the same as here and thinking the car might get damaged or me crushed. Both would be disastrous. So I got up and made a frame out of old barn timbers I had in stock. I feel much safer under there now.

Thanks guys :-)Barn Frame under T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 01:03 pm:

That's great to see James! Good job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 08:11 am:

James,

The made in China items are usually "ok" and sometimes even great. And if they were rated at 3000 lbs each that is 6000 lbs total for a car that weighs less than 1500 lbs (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wghts for a roadster on 7/24/24 ). And you are supporting the light end of the car. But those supports if they ever started leaning over did not appear to have much of a base to keep them from going over. I.e. if they could pull the bolt out of the wooden base or if the wooden base would split etc.

The arrangement you now have appears to be very solid as far a lift (lots more than required even if each stand is rated for 1500 lbs for 3000 total rather than the higher number I guessed at). It also now has some real stability (lots more than required) thanks to your added wooden stand.

You may or may not run into a new opportunity for creative thinking when you go to put the rear axle back under the car. The taper part of the rear axles may hit the angled supports before you can get the rear axle housing under the rear springs. Or you may even find that the rear axle backing plate hits those supports? From the photos I cannot tell if your horizontal beam is a couple of inches in front of the rear spring or 6 or more inches.

But if you find that the rear axle or backing plates hit the back support angle when you roll the axle back under the car, please avoid the temptation to go back to what you originally had with only the spindly jack stands. You could add some side braces 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 but lower so the rear axles don't hit them. Triangle shapes are very good at keeping things from moving. Since the jack stands are holding the weight -- the primary purpose of the wooden structure is to keep the car from shifting and titling the jack stands.

If you only need an inch or little more room -- you could "notch" the rear supports. Or lift the frame and move the entire unit further forward if it is not already touching the rear fenders. Or some other combination that still provides you the good stability your current wood structure added.

One of my favorite Mark Twain sayings is, "It is better to be safe a 1000 times than dead once." Of course I never thought about that when I was a teenager.....

Good luck with your project. Stay warm -- and if you are married don't get 600 weight oil on the floors in the house....

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James G Fisher III Peachtree City, GA on Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 01:51 pm:

Hi Hap,
Thanks for the input. It's too late on the oil on the floor thing though. Spent some time trying to get it off the refigerator..... to her satisfaction.

I figure when I put the axle back in I will have to remove the wood frame. While I'm rebuilding it I wanted to other things like pull the gas tank and paint it.

I'm trying just to do 3 jobs at a time so I don't loose track. It's very tempting to do a frame off restoration but I don't won't to over load myself and miss the fun parts of owning a T. I've learned from past experience that too many winter repairs sometimes means when spring comes I can't figure out which repair has kept me from driving. Did that on my old ford truck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, December 10, 2016 - 04:45 pm:

I am usually an open supporter of apparent mid range or better Chinese tools...

But that scares me a bit too...

First, does it say Made in China? And...which one?

Mainland Chinese would not have a clue what a "lb". was...not one...further, to the mainland Chinese like most of USA now, the term "#" means something for social media. Even College grads get it wrong 99% of the time. Taiwanese on the other hand have been selling us junk for 50 years and seem to have learned the USA system from kindergarten on.

Also, in PRC and ROC, they can sometimes (often) be off by the power of 10...turns out those old abbacus beads worked the same as scientific notation, and apparently the names of the 10 bead and the 100 bead sound similar.


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