What if the rear wheel spins when the car's jacked up but not in gear?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: What if the rear wheel spins when the car's jacked up but not in gear?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 03:16 pm:

Doing engine work and not getting the best cranking action from my battery. I read somewhere on the forum that if you jack up the rear wheels it takes quite a bit of pressure off and cranks more easily.

So I jacked up the rear axle (as far towards the wheel as possible after reading about axle bending risk by centering the jack). I put a jack stand on one side and used my jack to hold up the other side. The other side drifted down to just touch the ground overnight.

Fast forward - start engine. Hand brake in the neutral position. Engine running. That one rear wheel in the air is spinning seemingly quite fast.

I pulled the brake back further to theoretically ensure it is out of gear. Doing that began to strain the engine and it sounded like it was going to die. I'm running it in a garage, jacked up with simple wheel chocks in front of front wheels. But still nervous so not willing to give the engine too much gas.

Is some spinning ok? It appears to be spinning fast, but maybe that's just a function of being off the ground?

I also wonder if my low gear band is too tight? It's actually screwed in pretty far because when I was last driving the car, it definitely wasn't grabbing that low gear very well. At least compared to the responsiveness of High and Reverse.

Is this normal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 03:39 pm:

Spinning of wheel is normal and more so when cold. The reason you raise rear wheel is to lesson the drag of cold stiff oil .
Did you adjust low band? Is it noticable when it warms up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 03:43 pm:

Not sure Dallas. Didn't want to run it too long (garage, and worried that I may be doing some damage. Plus, from another ongoing thread right now, my #1 spark plug broke off so it's running on 3 spark plugs. I read that maybe I could warm up the engine a little and then with some JB Blaster, cool off the plug more quickly and possibly get it out. I'm pretty sure the head's coming off later today.

I'm glad to hear this is normal and more so with a cold engine. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 03:52 pm:

Charlie
I drove mine the 1st few times on 3 cylendrs becauee i didnt have a muffler or know what it should sound like on all four. I dont believe it will hurt anything . Good luck with that plug


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 04:14 pm:

The low gear pedal should be fully engaged in low gear at 1" to 1 1/2" above the floorboard. If it is adjusted higher than that, it is too tight. However, when the low gear cam and notch are worn, it might be too tight even when the pedal is 1" above the floorboard. Take off the inspection plate over the transmission and notice at what position of the pedal the band begins to compress. When it is worn, you can press it almost all the way down without much movement of the band. So it will drag because in order to get the band to compress at all, you would need to tighten it too much.

I have had that same problem with two of my cars and it is not unusual. The only fix would be to replace the notch and the cam. If you continue to drive with that problem unresolved you will wear out the band very rapidly and if you are using Kevlar bands the drums will get hot and crack. Another indication of the above mentioned problem would be blue colored drum caused by overheating.

Anyway your problem could be anything from adjustment too tight to worn parts as described above.

With the inspection plate off looking down you will find the band does not compress until your pedal is about half way down (neutral). Then as you push farther down it will compress until it is tight when the pedal is 1" above the floorboard. When everything is adjusted right with the car parked on a level surface the car should not roll when you turn the crank nor should the engine turn when you push the car by hand. If either the engine turns when you push or the car rolls when you turn the crank, it is adjusted too tight.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 04:42 pm:

The drag from the oil on the clutch disks will cause the rear wheels to turn. As stated above more so when the oil is cold. The same reason the T's creep when started sitting all 4 on the ground. After the oil is warmed up try setting your parking brakes, should stop the wheels spinning. If when you apply the parking brakes the engine really bogs down, then the low band needs adjustment. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 05:17 pm:

When only one wheel is off the ground, it will turn twice as fast as when both wheels turn the same speed. If both are off the ground, they MAY both turn the same speed. Or one may turn faster than the other. Or one could not turn at all and the other turn twice as fast. Just depends on which side has more friction. Others have different theories, but mine is that you will get more of the "Flywheel effect" that people are looking for cold cranking, by lifting only one wheel. Pulling the lever back enough to apply the parking brake defeats the purpose of jacking the wheel. However, prolonged running of the differential with one wheel spinning doesn't do your spider gears any favors. When driving down a straight road, they are not spinning on their axis at all. When driving around a corner, they are spinning, but pretty slowly and only for as long as it takes to straighten back up. Running with one wheel off the ground has them spinning 90 to nothing for as long as you do it. I don't do it at all, but if you must, do it long enough to get the car started and let back down. 5w30 will go a long way to helping with those cold starts. Proper tyranny adjustment is a must too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:10 pm:

If the engine seems to be straining as you put the brake on that is probably just the normal drag you would be getting if you start cold with the rear wheels on the ground. That is why people raise one wheel to make cold starting easier. If it does not stop once the oil has thinned then the low band must be too tight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 06:35 pm:

Or the clutch ain't adjusted right. Or the discs have worn grooves into the dogs of the brake drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Sunday, November 27, 2016 - 09:58 pm:

The car now starts / runs, but on just 3 cylinders since I broke off the spark plug in #1. So, after much forum work and reading, I've removed the head. I have questions about it, but will post on a separate thread. Once I get the head back on and everything put back together I'm going to move to the transmission and do some of the checking / adjusting discussed above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 03:28 pm:

Charlie,

I didn't even know it was possible to break off a spark plug. I think you must have had them super tight, which is not necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 04:15 pm:

Jerry - I surely tightened them too much. I didn't torque them or measure the torque, so it's possible that I tightened #1 more than the others. But I wouldn't think that much. I'm looking forward to reinstalling the plugs just snug.

A machine shop got the piece of the spark plug out. He said he used heat and it came right out.

He also ran a tap through the other spark plug holes to make sure they were clean. This worried me a bit since I'd read on this forum about spark plug holes being tapered and that you don't want to bore out the tapered section. The machinist told me that he only ran the tap through until he hit resistance. And since he clearly works on a lot of engine heads based on what was lying around, I'm pretty confident that he didn't do anything wrong.

The head is basically flat. He tested it with a small metal strip at .002" thickness and it wasn't able to pass between a straight edge and the head.

The head is a little "cruddy". He recommended a 1x1 wider than the head and some medium grade emory paper to clean it up. I'm a little concerned about overdoing something. I'm going to start with lacquer thinner first, then maybe 400 grit fine emory paper wrapped around a flat 1x1. I don't think I'll go to the medium grit. Seems to heavy. I'm also going to try the same on the block. Rags stuffed inside and a vacuum cleaner should keep any grit out of the important parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 04:43 pm:

If you have a bottoming tap, now is the time to clean up the bolt hole threads in the block. Also take a pick and dig it around the bottom of the holes to break up any crud, then blow the junk out of the holes with the vacuum running nearby to suck up the crud that flies out. Be sure to wear eye protection when you blow the crud out! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 06:15 pm:

Charlie, Mark S. is giving some good advice about cleaning up the bolt holes in the block. The use of a bottom tap and air to blow out the holes and cleaning them up is a must when working on old engines like a T.
Whats also important is the water passages in the head and block.
Get you a 1/4" drill bit and clean up the 1/4" water jacket holes in the head and block. Those are really important for proper cooling and MUST be clear.

Use a cordless drill and CAREFULLY clean up the holes with the drill bit. Take your time and you'll be surprised how much crud you remove when cleaning up the head and block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 06:38 pm:

John - I will definitely do this. Does the block require a longer than typical drill bit?

I'm definitely up for taking the opportunity to clean out the cooling system. I would think that now's the time since I have the head off and all the coolant drained out of the car. I've seen the video by Dauntless Geezer that includes a rubber plug with a water hose and air compressor both at the same time. I'm not sure I can pull that off now - especially considering most water hoses around here are shut off for the winter. I'm sure I could use vinegar or CLR and then flush with bucket quantities of water. I'll have to look up the steps on the forum. And of course figure out how to mediate the various opinions over the pluses and minuses of the methods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 08:37 pm:

It sound like we spent the holiday together. Trying to start my 26/27 engine on 15 frame and going through many gyrations to do so. After seeing two valves not closing, took head off and worked on them. While head was off, my son noticed the ports for the valves and the cyl heads were just covered in carbon and greasy oil and gas. We spend considerable time wire brushing and, in some cases, a hammer and screwdriver to chip off 90 years of carbon. I think we actually doubled the size of the valve ports and upon reassembly, the car is working outstanding.

Drove it today for the first time in our lifetime driving this, or any other T.

It's worth it to clean up the head as best you can, it's a large part of the engine machine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 08:46 pm:

Congratulations, Robert! Any pictures / video? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 09:39 am:

Reading Robert'a tale of piston and valve cleaning makes me ask for input in how to do this. Robert mentioned wire brush, hammer, screwdriver. I have all that stuff - BUT - what can go wrong. What should I do or not do? Stainless wire brush? Brass? Solvents?


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