Pouring Babbit

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Pouring Babbit
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 02:18 am:

Saturday afternoon I was on the technical event of the Model T and A club in the Netherlands. As finding good work shops that can repair babbit bearings in an engine are very hard to find here in Belgium and the Netherlands they start trying to pour babbit in the bearing and try to do it right.
There for they are looking for a lot of information about the way to do it.
How to clean and prepare the parts and motor block? How to heat it all up? What are the right temperatures for parts and Babbit before bringing it together? How to cool it down? How to check if the pouring was done right?? and a lot of more information.
I know this forum is great and will be help full in finding the right way to make this work.
Thanks
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 06:11 am:

Mike Benders website gives good information with heat, cleaning, prepping and tools for this issue. I paid under 40.00 for a laser heat indicating gun that goes over 2000 degrees that's very handy for Babbitt and other checking like engine and radiator heat. Gene French sells the molds and boring fixture that's very well made and designed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bailey Rettig in SoCal on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 12:40 pm:

Andre,
Call Anthony Boer in Klaaswaal, NL. He should be able to help you. If you need his telephone number/email address, send me a PM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 02:00 pm:

Thank you Bailey and Paul,

I know Toon Boer for a few years and we were together Saturday afternoon. The problem with the pouring is the fusion of the babbit with the cast iron parts and how to have a control in the quality of the fusion. I think the problem is first the cleaning of the parts than the way the tin is applied, the way the parts are heated, what is the right temperature and how to cool it down.
The information on YouTube and other media don't tell it all and do not give all the same information.
The babbit in the motor block is hammered, why is it done in the motor block and not in the bearing caps or rods?
You see there are a lot of questions that stays unanswered.
I hope to find someone who can walk us through all the questions.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 03:10 pm:

Andre,
send me a PM with a list of what you need to know and I'll run through it with photo's as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lester in Floyd, VA on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 06:16 pm:

Andre, the caps are steel but the block is cast iron. Herm Kotke contends that you can't tin cast iron, and I tried to prove him wrong, but I failed. Every time I heated it up to tin it, oil would ooze from its pores. So I put it in an oven and heated it to 400C for an hour, but still no luck. So in my opinion, Herm is right. So there are holes drilled in the block to lock in the babbitt, and you peen it to make it lock tighter. The caps, on the other hand, are steel and can be tinned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 07:38 pm:

Andre, You can not tin the block that is cast iron, that is what the anchor holes are for, The caps are steel and can be tinned with Tin Tight from Mcmaster Carr, I was told years ago the reason for hammering in the block with a babbitt hammers was because they did cold pours in the block and to get it anchor in the holes the peening was done. I choose to warm the block hot enough so the babbitt cools with the block, never had a shell come loose from a hot pour! If you want to email me off line I will go into more details.Joe Bell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 08:23 pm:

Joe,
I'll let Herm choo you out about peening but I'm with you, let the babbitt ,block and molds all cool down and never had a shrinkage problem.
As for tinning cast iron, not a problem if you know what to do, after all it's been done for more than 150 years. I still repair freeze cracks with babbitt.
Just to prove a point once for Herm, I tinned a main.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, November 28, 2016 - 11:56 pm:

Frank anyone can tin a block shell like you did, the trick is getting the block hot enough for the Babbitt to stick to the tinning, and the tinning to the block, as it will not, as there is no way to hold the block temp. where it should be. There will be hair line cracks under the Babbitt where the tin normally hold the Babbitt on a steel shell, the crank will beat it to death.

With out peening, the Babbitt will always be loose, tinned or not, in a block, as the Babbitt always pulls toward the coldest side, which in this case is the jig, as the block will stay hotter longer. If it isn't peened before hand, the crank will do it for you and that is where you don't get the mileage out of it that you should.

Another thing to clear up. The anchor holes are NOT there to hold the Babbitt in the block, that is what the peening is for. The anchor holes keep the Babbitt from spinning, they will NOT hold loose Babbitt in the block, any way or how.

Frank if you think you know how to pour Babbitt so well, then why do you have so much information that isn't true!

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 12:22 am:

Did I forget to wright, not a problem if you know what to do? lets see, mmm, nope, just seems to me that you just don't!! Herm.
Now you've hurt Joe's feelings, gone and left him out of you BS and Idiot list of machinists, engineers and mechanics who just don't know what they are doing.
Shame on you!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 01:24 am:

Show us all your work Frank, and I will show you mine.

I will show you piece for piece!

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 01:52 am:

Ho,Ho,Ho,guys,
The meaning to open this tread was not to start a discussion on what or who is right or wrong but to find the right information to pour babbit and doing it the right way so we can keep the Model T's and A's on the road, also here in Holland and Belgium.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 02:01 am:

That's just it Andre, there's more than one way but Herm thinks there is only one and that's his way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 02:29 am:

Andre, pouring babbit is more art than science. Anyone with the right equipment can machine the bearings, but pouring them is where the game is won or lost. It is all about preparation, temperature, and timing. As for tinning and bonding babbit to cast iron, I am with Herm, Joe, and the others. If anyone knew what to do, it would be Ford. They had virgin castings, never exposed to oil or other contaminants, all the expertise of the best in the industry, superb control of production conditions, and yet did not attempt to tin and bond babbit to iron. It can be done, but does not work on a practical production basis. Pour the block and pein it. Tin and bond the main caps and rods. PM me and I will share with you everything we can help with. The time is long past to keep secrets about an endangered art. I welcome others to join us in it.
Fordially, Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 03:26 am:

'If anyone knew what to do, it would be Ford'

Erik, Ford service bulletin 1920 was recommending cold pour and peening was a round bar, not beating the crap out of it to fill anchor holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Michael Rogers on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 08:33 am:

Erik is correct. BTW, a cold pour is not using a pure cold block, it just means the block is colder than the babbitt. All things are relative.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 02:48 pm:

Interesting how one would interpret paragraph 327 as a heated or warm block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 05:19 pm:

If anyone want's see how Ford done it, and not have to listen to the B.S. Frank is trying to feed you, order a K.R. Wilson, 1926 tool catalogue. It will tell you what, why, and how the Babbitt was put in, and Frank, there is only one way to put it in, and make sure it stays, and the clearances stay, or like I said, with out peening, the crank will move the Babbitt. I know a Radiator repair man like yourself has a lot of things screwed up, when it comes to Babbitt, but it seems that your problem is, your not trainable.

One thing, Wilson said Ford did not preheat the block as a step, while true, it is misleading.

Ford put the 3 bearing jig on the block, and with a big flame torch, heated the Jig, and the block at one time at each bearing. This I seen on a public TV movie about Ford.

The Babbitt hammer looks like Wilsons, but it was run by a air, or electric hammer.

Boys, Eric, James, and J & M Machine have poured a lot of Babbitt, It doesn't sound like there is much variance, in there process.

One last thing Frank, your trying to suck me on to Joe for some reason for one of your sit back and laugh jobs, didn't work again, or trying to find someone that will agree with you.

Examples: Joe,
I'll let Herm choo you out about peening but I'm with you, let the babbitt ,block and molds all cool down and never had a shrinkage problem. "END QUOTE"

Herm.
Now you've hurt Joe's feelings, gone and left him out of you BS and Idiot list of machinists, engineers and mechanics who just don't know what they are doing. "END QUOTE"

I hope Joe gets what you tried to do again!

You see Frankie, as I said before, my Customers don't care what you or anybody else does with their babbitting, they only care about the work we do for them is right.

In 52 two years Frankie, we have never lost a bearing, here is why!










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 06:31 pm:

Frank, what you are using is so out dated.

It would be like using a 1920's lathe book to run a 2016 C&C machine.

First off they are talking about a cold block yes, because they couldn't clean them like now. Oil does not come out of our blocks when clean.

They talk about a pine test stick for Babbitt Temperature, you should know that that so called test, ( what a Joke) was made, and only works on lead Babbitt, and is still a guess job.

The equipment they are using there is Hempy--Cooper, used several years before K.R. Wilson, much has changed since then.

Oh, Frankie, don't for get to read 330, on peening!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 06:36 pm:

One day Herm, I'll send you my PM's. Forum readers just don't wont to get involved, the way you read and interpret postings is still putting a big question mark on your comprehension of it all.
Your senior years aren't being kind to you Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 07:34 pm:

My question is why is what I ask all the time? The old boy that showed me, may he rest in Model T heaven! Poured a shell with a block warm, then he knocked the shell out of it and showed me the back side of it, there was veins all through it, I can see why you would peen it from that looks, then he poured a hot block and knocked the shell out of it, there was just a smooth surface, then he took two pieces of babbitt and hammered the two together,like a forging would be well the two pieces still separated from each other. I am not trying to get in a pissing match with any one out there but when the out come works I will go with it. Years ago when trying to paint some thing four different people will tell you four different ways and to me what ever way works for you do it. Thanks guys this makes an interesting article for every one to read and I am one that very seldom ever post any thing, have a good evening! Joe Bell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 01:41 am:

Good morning Guys,
Thanks all for the help.
I like to propose this: It will be interesting that everyone of you post the way he pour Babbitt step by step, starting with the cleaning of the parts, on this tread without criticize the other so we have a solid base to start with.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 02:12 am:

Stripped block, clean oil, grease and dirt, anyway you like, then hot caustic bath, just under boiling, for 4 hours or so, make sure the old babbitt is removed as it will neutralise caustic, then wash clean with water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 05:03 am:

Agree Andre, for over a year I have been self educating main bearing replacement reading and listening to folks who have done it hundreds of times.
We all have different opinions bank accounts and tools. I have respect for Herm, Frank, Mike Bender, and others who have done it many times with proven success.
I had one done two times by a craftsman who had done many in the past but was in poor health switching to a KR Wilson setup and my block was the first using it, That one cost me.
Caustic use over much of the US is a real issue to dispose of the waist. In the time checking and using PM asking questions I found Mike Benders site was the best because he did not insist his way was the best way and its a video showing why and what he was doing and you could watch his method and he answers a PM question


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 07:28 pm:

Looks like you might be fighting an up-hill battle to learn what you wont to know, those who have emailed me, doing it on a hobby basis and have their own ways of getting an end result, feel threatened by the ridicule of those who are professionals and protective of their trade. I'm getting to old or care for what they think is right or wrong, the end result is it works and I don't hand over a fat bill, I do it for nothing. But I will say I'm on the last of doing it as my eyes can't work at night any more.
Just finished this one, broke a crank several weeks ago and 6 more to go, 4 of which are getting scats.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 09:50 pm:

For you guys interested in babbitt bearings check this out. I found this while researching how to pour bearings in a antique, pre 1900, lathe. Very interesting. PK

http://vintagemachinery.org/files/PDF/FAQ/Magnolia.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 10:06 pm:

I did not advocate beating the babbit to death to fill the anchor holes. That's not what peining is for, by the way. It is for pushing the babbit back out against the block after it shrinks during cooling. If your anchor holes are not filled you screwed up the pour, probably by leaving trash in the holes that generated gas. As for heating the block, I preheat the pouring mandrel and dams to temp. By that time the block is hot enough to drive off any moisture that would cause a blowout. Heating the crank saddle bores hot enough to tin them is asking for trouble. I don't do it and I have a furnace that can heat the whole block that hot and more. I clean the blocks same as Frank with caustic, then a trip through the jet wash. Also, I clean out the anchor holes with a drill just before pouring. I pein the bearings per KRW procedure. Opinions vary on all of this, that much is clear. Fordially, Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert A Weitzel on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 12:21 am:

Eric and I have poured many blocks together Both for customers , learning classes and meeting venues. everything Eric says I agree, especially when he says, it's more like science


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