I began with the premise that I didn't want to remove any material from the notoriously delicate reverse drum. I thought adding body solder would be a good way to add weight to the light side of the drum. But then I was told that it was unlikely to stay put on cast iron, so I did a little test.


Using the best flux available, and after boiling in lye for several hours to remove any embedded oil, I ran some solder on a test drum. I put a wire loop through it to use in a pull test.


I found that I was able to pull the lump of solder off the drum. So much for that idea.


Still wanting to add material to the drum, not remove any, I riveted on a couple of steel sandwiches and used drilling and grinding to remove steel for balance.


Seeing these pictures on Facebook, one person commented that no reputable rebuilder would balance a drum this way, and he would be very upset in anybody did this to his transmission.


His first objection was that I had drilled four holes in the drum, and they would cause cracks. The whole idea of riveting these pieces was to NOT drill any holes in the drum. As you can see here, the rivets do not pass through the drum material. Objection overruled.


Another objection was that I had used "flimsy tin". The material is 1¼" pallet strap. If you're familiar with pallet strap, you know it's pretty tough spring steel. The rivets also are steel, not aluminum. Again, objection overruled.

The third objection was that these weights will collect enough band liner lint to throw the transmission out of balance, and, I presume, lead to disaster. The jury is still out on that one. I do still need to smooth the rough edges.

What do you think?

Steve, I think you're obsessing over balancing parts that have run in service for millions of miles for over a century "as is". I think you're on track balancing flywheel magnets, have you run them yet, or is this transmission follow-through part of that project ? One thing's sure, all parts running in balance couldn't hoit !!

All the same project. I hope to have the engine back in the car by the end of the year.

Steve, Could you build up by brazing? I think it will stick. Brazing is great for repairing cracked cast iron. Holds up quite well. Scott

I could try brazing. I have a lot of junk drums to practice on.

Steve,

You've seen what the steel thrust washers do to the pins in a differential. I'm not sure I would want those pieces of metal inside my tranny. I would indeed try the brazing. It sounds like a much better idea to me.

Sorry Steve, I just don't like the look of it. Especially that it's not attached to anything. If they come loose you're cooked for sure. Also sorry I have no suggestions beyond brazing but I'd lose what's there.

Seems counter productive. You added material to what I assume was the light side, now making it the heavy side just so you could now take material away to get it in balance? Personal preference is to not add material (which has the potential of coming loose) to gain balance, but to take material away. Just my humble opinion.

Steve:

Did you use flux when you soldered the drum? Was the drum hot enough when you applied the solder? Notwithstanding your cleaning process, was the area to be soldered clean enough?

I ask in that I am very surprised that the solder did not attach properly.

While I have not attempted to solder a T drum, I have soldered cast iron and have never seen the solder separate from the cast iron.

I suspect that unless you determine why the solder did not attach, and correct it, you will likely have the same problem with brazing.

Good luck....

Timothy

This thread from 2015 has some content from J&M Machine where they talk about grinding some material from the edges of the oblong holes on heavy side of low and reverse drums to bring them into balance. They also show a different approach for the brake drum.

Note that the grinding is done such that the holes keep their smooth contour and that any sharp edges are also smoothed and rounded to make it more difficult for cracks to start in the ground area.

If I ever have to balance my drums, this is how I would do it. I would examine the heavy side first to see what features it had that made it heavier in the first place, and start my grinding on those features to make them more like the features on the light side.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/529563.html?1427943706

Steve, Brazing in my opinion will get the drum too hot and could cause warpage and cracks. I also agree that the plates riveted like you have them could come loose. and soldering to cast iron that has been submerged in oil is a futile attempt. Sorry but Im going to have to give three strikes. As to the brazing, you will have the cast iron past a dull red color, it will need to be almost bright glowing red to achieve a good braze job. All iron and steel have a "critical point" That is in most cases around 600 degrees. after that changes start to happen in the metal. such as expansion, shrinkage, warpage, alloy change, ect ect. In the case of the drum, you will be "well past" the critical point and you are going to expand the side of the drum you are brazing, putting extreme strain to the rest of the drum, then when it cools it is going to shrink to less than it was before you started. That puts extreme stress in the opposite direction of the expansion you just put the drum thru. That is why cast is so hard to weld. Even if it did not crack the drum from the brazing, it is very likely to crack in service. The only correct option (from a 35 years Boilermaker welder perspective) would be to braze it and then stress relieve it. That means braze it and immediately put it in a oven and hold it to about 600-650 degrees for a minimum of 8 hours. then start a cooling step down process to about 300-400 degrees over a 24 hour period. Then let it finish cooling off in the oven. The 400 degree temp will take it back to below the critical point and be stress relieved. A lot of work and gas/butane for the stove, but it is doable. As to soldering the cast iron. If it is new cast iron, it is possible. But old oil soaked cast iron is "virtually impossible" to solder. Cast iron is "porous" it "soaks" up the oil like a sponge. Over the years of heating and cooling the drums from years of use, the oil has likely completely permeated the cast iron pores. You can clean it, grind it, sand it, heat it, till doomsday and the oil or oil residue is still there. It only
rears its ugly head" when you heat it up to solder it. Brazing gets the iron to a hot enough temperature to somewhat re-alloy the cast and braze at the surface of the steel/cast to achieve a good bond. Then the riveting of the plates is "do you feel lucky" type of thing. Sorry, but those are my opinions and 2 cents worth ... Have fun and be safe Donnie Brown ...

Agree with Mark, if you feel the need to balance the drums then JM's approach is sound. Your objective is first to do no harm.

Personally I think that if you balance the flywheel and the magnets you are accomplishing all that is necessary for the transmission balance. The rest is just overkill.

I go along with Rich Bingham. IMHO you are overthinking this. In a perfect world, our T four-bangers would have counterbalanced crankshafts balanced to Chrysler 426 Hemi standards, but they don't. I'd check the drum for dimension and cracks; if it's OK, bolt in and race.

You can make the process of balancing as simple or as complex as you want. The one constant is that unbalance is created by the difference between the center of rotation and center of mass. Before I start grinding the holes (which is my preferred method) I would look for run out in the drum and correct that first (also run out in my balancing arbor). Drilling holes close to the center of rotation is not as effective as drilling them further away (less distance between the center of rotation and mass). Lastly, some believe that static balance is done without the part revolving a high speed (ie:static balancing ways). Not necessarily true, static balance often refers to a single plane balance done with the part turning. Dynamic balance is balancing in multiple planes, but the part has to be wide enough to separate the planes. Just my humble opinion.

Steve, I have added weight to balance a flywheel by drilling a hole, tapping it and inserting a bolt. I took stock off the bolt to achieve balance and peened the exposed threads it to keep it in place. You could also use high heat loctite. No problems after thousands of miles. Doesn't Mike Bender do the same re drums? A friend of mine did the that with at least one of his drums but hasn't yet run the car.
Re a total dynamic balance, I am a now a believer. My 1910 runs very smooth, unlike any other T I've owned. Full dynamic balance and alignment is the key.

Donnie:

If as you state that it's not possible to solder cast iron that has been submerged in oil, then how do those that rebuild engines with poured babbitt bearings manage to "attach" the bearing to the block? My understanding is that they first "tin" the block....which is not different than soldering the block, which has been submerged in oil just like the drum.

Timothy

Timothy, there are a lot of differences between re-pouring block bearings and soldering weight to a transmission drum. For one, the block journals were initially tinned to accept the bearing pour when new. A certain amount of tinning penetration would present in the casting, and remain there. Another difference is that the bearing is "keyed" to the bores by the dowel holes in the block, and finally, bearings are "captive" when assembled - unless the bearing alloy fails and breaks up, the babbitt casting ain't going' nowhere - else modern insert bearings wouldn't work. All this is a little different from attaching a given weight of solder to an oil-soaked part where it might come off if the bond is imperfect.

All said, it's not that easy to pour bearings either . . . much attention to detail, skill and experience is necessary to make re-pouring the bearings in a T block successful.

I hate spending money if I can possibly avoid it, and prefer genuine Ford parts, but Dave Nolting's drums are fantastic. Mine was perfectly balanced on arrival. Rivet your best gear onto one of those!

Steve,

Since I know you don't drive the hell out of your cars I would tend to agree with Rich. It ain't worth it. Next best advice, (in my opinion), is Nevin's, suggesting the fully machined, inherently balanced "Nolting drum".

That being said, I think you could safely remove material from this area of a reverse drum. It's not close to the periphery, so the balancing effect of such removal will not be as great, however, as I state, I think it's a safe place for removal. You never see them cracked there, (I don't anyway), so it's obviously a low stress area.

Rich:

Thanks for insight and observations.

Timothy

Another casual observation is when you start to see your correction angle 60 degrees apart as in this case, you are starting to "chase" the unbalance around the part, similar to a barber trying to cut your hair the same on either side of your head and failing at it. Just my humble opinion

Joe, that's a really important consideration, I think.

Tim, Rich answered most of it. For the most part new bearings poured into old blocks do not attach themselves to the block. It is sometimes possible to just pick a "new pour" out of the block. There sometimes is a little residual tinning left and sometimes does attach to the new bearing, but more than likely not a good bond. So I just assume there is no bond. So new bearings are peined into place to form to the block and then the dowel holes stop it from rotating. Now the main and rod caps are a whole different matter. They are not cast iron. So being steel they can be cleaned up and re-tinned and get the bearing to actually attach itself to the caps. Now I do not want to say it is impossible to solder and tin old oil soaked cast iron. Sometimes if you are lucky, all the planets align just right, you have been good to friends family and help out the less fortunate, you may get a good bond. But from a welders point of view, If 90% or more of the oil soaked solder joints are going to be bad, they are all bad... Same way with a weld of any type. If I can not be 100% sure of my weld, it does not pass inspection, then it does not leave the shop or remain in service on the jobsite. I have hundreds (probably thousands) of welds still in service on at least 10 Nuclear Reactors in the US. They are on the reactor itself as well as the core and steam generators. Not a place that you want anything wrong with the weld. Not trying to brag, but I do take pride in my welds. Too many years as a Boilermaker not too.

I hear tell of a product called "babbit" that weighs a fair amount and has been known to bond to cast iron...

Steve, the riveted 1-1/4" banding hasn't budged with all the pushing and pulling from the drill/die grinder right? Safety wire it all in there. You pulled the "nails" for the rivets so there are holes to capture the rivets. I'll try something completely outside the box if it works and will cause no harm.
IF something failed, the pieces could work forward and go directly into the triples and well... yuck.

I'd use cast welding rod and add as close to the drum face as I could. I hate to heat that with a torch and brass. Donnie has it correct. With the new rod out today you can stick a rod there without getting to hot. Man this thing must be a race car. I'd buy a balanced new drum as someone suggested.

Steve, I did not do any esoteric cleaning job on my transmission drums, just a solvent wash. I used my die grinder to make a clean surface on which to add solder to the inside of drums. This clean surface tinned well, and adding mass was relatively easy.

I would not do it again though. Solder will not take the extreme heat generated under some circumstances, and will form shot like little balls as it melts into the oil. Don't ask me how I know this.

Allan from down under.

Steve, here is my .10 cents, FIRST this type of research is what has kept the Model T alive for the last 50 years. Making it more understood and more user friendly. My only thing to add is next time if you had a small selection of magnets that you could place on the drum like wheel weights that might give a nice visual to how far out of balance the drum is. If I had a tool to balance drums like you I would use it. I also have a friend who balances crankshafts and have thought about doing something with him getting these results.

Rich Bingham on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 11:07 am:
Timothy, there are a lot of differences between re-pouring block bearings and soldering weight to a transmission drum. For one, the block journals were initially tinned to accept the bearing pour when new. A certain amount of tinning penetration would present in the casting, and remain there. Another difference is that the bearing is "keyed" to the bores by the dowel holes in the block, and finally, bearings are "captive" when assembled - unless the bearing alloy fails and breaks up, the babbitt casting ain't going' nowhere - else modern insert bearings wouldn't work. All this is a little different from attaching a given weight of solder to an oil-soaked part where it might come off if the bond is imperfect.

Model T blocks were never tinned only the main caps are tinned. Babbitt doesn't stick to cast iron that's why the lag holes in the block are there to secure the Babbitt with addition of peening.
I wouldn't recommend Steve what you are trying to accomplish by adding solder or braze or weld for that matter to the drums as you are going to cause hard spots distortion or breakage. Best way to balance the drums is weight removal around the spokes.

J&M
Maybe your post should read and explain a little clearer, as in Ford didn't babbitt cast iron.

To say 'Babbitt doesn't stick to cast iron'
is a false statement.

Babbitt, regardless % mix, lead right up to pure tin, will and is still used on cast iron.
Butchers equipment of cast iron is fully tinned right down to something as simple as the cast iron bottom spout on the T.

Frank, your not in the real world!

Tinning a block is not needed or desired.

And again, another example of you losing the plot Herm. You read into that for what you wanted to see,
It was simply correcting a statement of tinning cast iron.
Your world is what would be in question!!
Get those blood tests done Herm.

I have often thought about all this balancing and will offer my opinion,so take it for what it cost you. Anything turned on a lathe is balanced. Original drums were, and now that they are "aged" they have many times become "egg-shaped" from use,and out of balance. I turn my drums back to round and they seem to work just fine. If I had the proper grinder attachment,I would use it. Chasing all these things for a low RPM moter seems like a waste .The new drums are great if you have deep enough pockets.

Initially....I only balanced the pistons,connecting rods,crankshaft,flywheel and triple gears when I rebuild my 13 engine. I do not use magnets or slingers. The engine still vibrated and did not run smoothly until I balanced the transmission drums and clutch plate. After that, the engine did/does not vibrate and still runs smoothly.
I would agree with Royce's statement that "The Rest Is Just Overkill" provided that the three drums and clutch plate are only slightly out of balance. However, in my case all three drums and the clutch plate were all badly out of balance in my transmission.
You can sometimes reduce the amount of material removed from the brake drum by balancing the drum and clutch plate as an assembly by rotating the heavy side of one to the light side of the other. Once they are balanced as an assembly, mark them with a punch.
I only remove material from the "Windows" during the balance process. Some drums are so far out of balance that there is not enough material to safely remove......that's when you find a better drum that can be balanced.
I use a static balancer like what Steve has and am very happy with the results achieved.
Most model T owners that have driven in my model T have remarked how smooth my car is compared to other T's. I still have the original early crankshaft in this engine but have a Scat crank in a replacement engine that will be installed in the near future.
It's hard to pull a good running engine out when it performs so well even after 15 yrs of use. Even with everything balanced using an original crankshaft.....I know it's when.....not if that is unknown.

Jack, the drums are indeed machined on a lathe, but that does not necessarily mean they are well balanced. It depends how the casting was set up for the initial machining. As the inside diameter of the drum is not machined, any casting not well centred for the first machining, will be will out of balance.
As Les has found, some drums are so far out of balance that grinding to remove material is not a good idea. These are most likely to be those machined with the casting not well centred. I like his idea of balancing the first gear drum and driven plate as a unit. Rotating them to various positions can make the balancing much easier.

Allan from down under.

J&M
Maybe your post should read and explain a little clearer, as in Ford didn't babbitt cast iron.

To say 'Babbitt doesn't stick to cast iron'
is a false statement.

Babbitt, regardless % mix, lead right up to pure tin, will and is still used on cast iron.
Butchers equipment of cast iron is fully tinned right down to something as simple as the cast iron bottom spout on the T.


I don't know what you mean by butcher's equipment.
However; Babbitt does not fuse/stick to cast iron.
If that was a fact then all of our babbitting tools made from cast iron; KR.Wilson, Hempy-Cooper, Hub City and so on wouldn't be able to be used for pouring babbitt. The manufacturers would of chosen another material for the babbitt not to stick to in order for the babbitt to be poured and go where it should,. Rather than create a mess on the same tools you are pouring it with.

As Mr.Jelf Has found out soldering a cast iron part doesn't work as it has to physically bond to it.

It was mentioned in the Model A site that if you impregnated the cast iron with copper the solder would stick. Don't know if that's true or not ,never tried it.

Ford Had drilled the blocks so the babbitt would be retained by the holes in the bearing block as people smarter than us knew babbitt would not stick to cast iron.

Frank please show us why you believe Babbitt sticks to cast iron. Please do the same test as Mr.Jelf has explained in his procedure for cleaning and prep work, that you can go to the extent he has by embedding a wire to see if it pulls away.

By doing so and proving us wrong you have won your case rather than saying it does you can prove with pictures if it does.

Look up "heavy metal for balancing" It is used every day for impellers, flywheels, crankshafts ect. It is attached mechanically, IE drilling or reaming a hole. They do not use lead due to law suits in Ca. Dan

This is how you balance something - on a computerized machine, and you gently remove material until your there. You could remove it from the cast holes easily without compromising safety. I would not want those compression mounted chunks of metal in any of my engines.

https://youtu.be/8W0G1vEHqrc

The problem as I see it are drums that are way out of balance. Those that are close are relatively easy to balance by removing material. Some you simply can't do that without ruining the drum. So your choices are add weight or find another drum.
If you add weight, you can solder or braze and hope for the best or mechanically add weight.
A drilled and tapped hole for a bolt in the web will not weaken the drum any more than grinding material from the existing holes.
Re soldering, one very respected builder has used the method for years without a problem.

J&M
To answer you is simple, Stev didn't prep the cast iron correctly, you are right in saying it doen't stick to tooling etc you can dip copper, brass or steel into your smelter pot and it wont stick, because of it's raw condition.
a good prep is clean, clean again with hydrochoric acid and to grind the surface that is being worked, tin it correctly.
As for a test that's simple, grab yourself an old radiator with cast iron spouts, belt them with a hammer and you will smash the cast before the solder will let go.

Frank,

Those "old radiators with cast iron spouts" also have several rivets holding the spouts to the tanks. The solder is a seal only, not a mechanical attachment. Take your own advice and knock one off, you'll find rivets.

As for solder sticking to cast iron; of course it sticks. If not it would have fallen of when Steve flipped the drum over. It just doesn't have as high a bond strength as you would want. Either for drums.... or radiator spouts.

Jerry, The rivets are there to strengthen the joint between the outlet and the tank. You are correct in saying the solder joint is not strong enough on it's own. Solder used in radiators is there to make an easily achieved waterproof seal, but areas subject to vibration/stress need mechanical help. It has nothing to do with tinning the casting. A solder joint between a tinned casting and a brass panel will not split at the interface between the casting and the solder. Rather, the solder itself will fracture.

When a brass casting is used, as on repro radiators, the outlet is still riveted. A brass on brass solder joint is no stronger, even though the brass will tin more easily than cast iron.

Allan from down under.

Jerry
Yes some did use rivets but a good example of who didn't would be International and dodge, right up into the 70's.

There are many ways to key two pieces together, if rivets are not used, then another way was used, it sure is not the strength of solder that will hold it.

What I have seen in old Radiators, most have solder cracked on the stress points, and even has it pulled off its tinned area, but there is a reason for that as some know.

Herm.
Every thing has a failing point at some stage if used in long term, stress points and wrong context,
A good example is wrist pin bolts on a T.
The moral of this debate to begin with was to simply debunk the MYTH that,
'babbitt dosen't stick to cast iron'

About 27 years ago I had a 427 Ford engine balanced by an "expert". He drilled in the side of the crank counterweight a 3/4" hole and welded in a slug of Mallory metal. The engine ran OK but after a couple 6500 RPM passes at the drag strip it seemed to be wounded and was losing power. I took the engine apart and there were metal shavings all through the engine. That slug of Mallory metal came out and got into the timing set where it was chewed up.

An expensive lesson learned.

Frank, the myth comes in where you try to pour Babbitt to the tinning, and have it last any time under crank pressure, good luck with that one.

Herm.