1926-1927 Coil Box

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: 1926-1927 Coil Box
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 10:31 pm:

Does anybody have pictures of a 26-27 coil box without the wood in it? I'm trying to figure out what holds the wood to the box, besides the two screws through the front bar. I need to see the insides of the box.

Is the base piece on the bottom of the box (wood side) a separate slide in retainer for the bottom wood or is it just the front of the box?
I know it has some sort of indents on either side to that fit the holes on the base wood, but what they are or how they look I can't fathom.

Also on the vertical wood, there seems to be some sort of clip arrangement there too, but it's hard to see from any of the pictures I've got, because they've all got wood in them.

Lastly, is there any differences between the 1926 box and the 1927 box?...they look the same to me, but then I don't have one of these cars...maybe there are small differences that are not readily recognizable to those who are not familiar with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, November 29, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

The main thing that holds the bottom piece in place is the coils sitting on it. The side or backer piece is held by rivets through counter-bored holes that fasten that piece to the strap steel piece that goes across from end to end on the metal box. There is a lip at the bottom of the side piece that sits on top of about 1/8" of the bottom piece and both the side piece and the bottom piece were punched through the steel and into the wood but that was done with a dull punch so the metal is not punctured but just deformed into the grain of the wood along the ends of the metal box. What is interesting is that punch location is different from box to box and rarely do you find one that is punch exactly where the Ford drawing says it is supposed to be punched. It really doesn't matter where since its purpose would seem to prevent that end location from rattling or coming up when a tight fitting coil gets kinda stuck in there. There are no fasteners that hold the bottom and back to each other as was done on the 13-25 box. Just 2 rivets and 4 indentations hold it in place when there are no coils in the box. When there are coils in the box then the springs on the underside of the lid will sit on the top edges of the coils and push the coils down which then holds the bottom down too. There are only 2 wood pieces making up the bottom and side but there are 2 strips along the back that functionally replace the porcelain insulators and provide some rigidity to the side terminal bolts. The electrical connection for the whole box is just through the one screw at the bottom which also doubles as the method to hold one end of the bottom contact spring down. No "wiring" inside the box.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 07:24 am:

Regarding your last question: I have one '26 engine, and one '27 engine. I could see no differences in the coil boxes when disassembled that I can remember. What I will recommend is John Regan's coil box wood replacement. Doesn't absorb moisture like wood does, and doesn't shrink or rot. Well worth the money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 07:51 am:

Kevin; Martin may be working on another of his line drawings so that others may see how it goes together he does an excellent job


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 08:30 am:

G.R., Good point! I forgot about that. Yes, Martin's drawings are excellent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 08:54 am:

Thanks guys, I just wanted some pictures to show me what that box looked like without the wood in it...John has described it pretty well, but like the saying goes..."a picture is worth a thousand words". For me, it allows me to get the proportions correct as well.

Yes, G.R. you're correct, I am working on the 26-27 coil box...George Clipner sent me some really nice pictures of his box, but it's assembled (with John Regan's Coil Box replacement material) and on his car...what I got from those is the bracketry, and how it mounts to the engine, but I need the insides as well. I guess I'll just draw what I can from John's description and then post it here for corrections. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale L Myers on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 09:09 am:

These photos were taken to compare a common 26-27 coil box with the coil box that was on my son's roadster (built early October,1925) when we got it. Hopefully the pics of the one without wood show what you want.
The unusual short front mounting bracket shows no evidence of being the remains of a longer bracket that was cut off. It is a stamped piece and is a mirror opposite of the rear bracket.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 02:23 pm:

Very interesting picture of a different style 1926 coil box from early 1926 car with Oct. 1925 build date. I have never seen one like that. I once owned a very original Dec. 1925 built 2 Dr. and it had the common 1926 type coil box. Of course someone could have changed the coil box over the years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 08:41 pm:

I've only seen one other of this sort of box myself...where the left mounting bracket was the mirror of the right one. I saw it at a swap meet on a 25 car also...which what lead me to ask the question of, if there was a different box for 26 than for 27.

Also noticing how the upper bar on the rusty one doesn't have holes in it for screws or rivets, like the typical 27 box does. I don't recall if the one at the swap meet had screws or not, I was just fascinated by the mounting brackets. But it looks as if it depended upon the coils inside the box to keep the wood against that bar.

I'm thinking that the rusty box it probably the first production box mounted to the engine...but they found it to be too wobbly without that longer bracket early on and changed it out before too long. I mean if you've have a coil box mounted to the engine with only to head bolts and nothing under it for further support and it has coils in it, that darn thing is pretty damn heavy...I wonder how many of these bent on their brackets before they went to the long bracket on one side?

Thanks so much Dale, these pictures do very nicely for showing what I needed to know. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 10:49 pm:

Dale, Thanks for the photos of your sons coil box. In doing the Improved Model studies, I have never seen that coil box before. Being your sons car is an early Oct 1925 car, that timeframe falls in the time period of a lot of the changes due to poor design. It seems that a large portion of changes happened between the introduction of the Improved models in August 1925 and late December 1925. Its almost like they wanted to have all the problems behind them before the new year. No proof of that but I am leaning toward that conclusion the more research I do. Probably not an official decision, but more of an attitude toward the problems. I agree with Martin that the two bolt design was just a problem waiting to happen. Your pictures have brought to light one more of the possible variations of changed parts due to early or later production. Now I have to try and find some more surviving examples and also try to find a date of change for the part. With Martin saying he has seen another, and the coil box looks to be made that way, and not modified. I am fairly confident that your sons coil box is another early part. I just need to pursue it in the studies. Does anyone else out there have a two bolt mounted coil box. ???? I have a very early 26 touring, but it has the three bolt box on it. It could have been changed out by a dealer or even an owner. There may be very few surviving two bolt coil boxes left, as most may have been changed out. Thanks again for the photos. I have saved them to my files for later use in the studies, if that is OK with you. Martin, I am going to look thru my stash of coil boxes tomorrow for the slight possibility of having a two bolt box. Do you still need some photos of the inside of a coil box. If so Ill take some for you tomorrow. have fun and be safe... Donnie Brown .......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 04:05 am:

Donnie...yes I would like to see any pictures you may take of this box, as the saying goes, "more is always better" I would like to see as many details of the box and it's interior as possible, so I can add those small details too.

Chris Brancaccio is creating a place on this site to show my drawings (all of them) and has allowed for zooming in to see details. Currently however he's only got what little of the 1909 stuff I've sent to him. I think he's still in the planning stages of messing around with sizes and such...but the plan is that you will be able to download a 300 dpi full size (8.5 x 11) drawing from these thumbnails, or just look at them here on the site.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 07:48 pm:

Martin, here ya go. I have also noticed at least two different styles of wood. Just in the way they are manufactured, because they fit the same way. I struck out in finding a two bolt mount coil box in my parts stash. Im still wanting to find one if anyone has one ...

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 09:15 pm:

Wow! Donnie Those are terrific, plenty of good in tight close up shots of the box and wood...answered a lot of question I had about that lower bar.

One question though, if those copper round head carriage bolts holds the wood to the upper bar, with nuts on the inside of the box?...how do you get a coil past those nuts?...or does the round head of the bolt go through from the inside and it's just shown backwards in you photo, so as not to lose them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, December 01, 2016 - 09:58 pm:

Martin, I did not notice that those two bolts are in backwards and are in the rivet holes. That is just some wood that had came out of a box. I was mostly taking pictures of the wood pieces to show the different cutting techniques in making the wood. One of the boxes has the strips that do the same job as the earlier porcelain insulators cut with a bevel and the other the strips are square cornered. Do not use the loose wood pieces for nut and bolt placements. The picture of the box with the wood still attached has correct nut bolt placement and also shows the two tube type rivets that attach the back wood to the top metal strap. Just above that strap and between the top two commutator bolts is the little slot for the little flat metal tie strip that goes from the wood thru the little slot in the front of the coil box. The ends of the strip are bent at a 90 degree angle to attach the tie strip and keep the center of the coil box from bending in the middle. The bottom copper strip with the spring fingers is attached at each end with a tube rivet that I believe has a washer on the rivet up inside the hole to give support to the rivet and wood. The center hole has a copper plated carriage head bolt and nut with washer. It is where the power wire from the mag or battery hooks to. sorry for the confusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 02:24 pm:

Donnie

You posted earlier: With Martin saying he has seen another, and the coil box looks to be made that way, and not modified. I am fairly confident that your sons coil box is another early part. I just need to pursue it in the studies. Does anyone else out there have a two bolt mounted coil box. ????

Was in the storage bldg. today and found this 2-hole coil box too. Guess this is the early box for the engine mount change. So I have one now :-)






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