My weekend "T" work has hit a snag

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: My weekend "T" work has hit a snag
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill in Stamford, CT on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 07:13 pm:

The plan was to put things back together from the bottom up. First step oil pan inspection cover then the head. I cleaned up the inspection cover and bottom of pan, removed the horseshoe bars and cleaned them up and wiped down what I could. Grabbed my new gasket - WRONG GASKET. I don't know where or from which supplier I bought it. I'm not even sure it's for a Model T. It's approximately the shape of the inspection cover, but notably larger in length. Bummer.

Can I use the old gasket with a nice bead of Ultra Black on both sides of the old gasket? Or should I practice patience and order a new gasket?

I've posted a photo of a test bead of Ultra Black. I would obviously go all the way around the gasket and all the way around all bolt holes. But is this enough Ultra Black? I'm concerned about bits of caulk getting squeezed inside the oil pan and then possibly causing havoc inside the engine.

The other photos are of the horseshoe bars. I'd read about grinding out a small groove on either side of the front center bolt hole to allow oil to feed into the first dip. I did some grinding, not very successfully. More importantly is a modification done by a previous owner. The rear horseshoe, center hole was converted to a stud and a nut is screwed on from the outside. Interesting mod that I think is pretty good. But see the photos. He cut / ground nearly half the metal away. I'm not sure what the point is. I doubt it's an issue and the horseshoe is still plenty strong.

Lastly - cylinders, pistons, valves. How clean should I try to get them. What would you recommend for cleaning them. What should I be careful NOT to do?

Is this bead size sufficient?


The old gasket


Rear horseshoe



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 07:19 pm:

You can re-use your existing gasket in a pinch, but a local auto parts store probably sells bulk, blank gasket material that would allow you to cut a new gasket yourself, using the old one as a template.

Is your engine running a Scat crank? It looks like your horseshoe bars have been clearanced on the end and a stud welded in to clear a Scat crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill in Stamford, CT on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 07:24 pm:

No idea if it's a Scat crank, but very well could be. The car's been substantially modified mechanically. This makes sense. I also found out that I probably purchased the wrong gasket. I believe the wrong one I have is for the 4 dip pan. My pan is 3 dip. The engine is October, 1924, and it seems that 1924 was a year of both 3 and 4 dip pans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 02, 2016 - 07:41 pm:

Take a picture of the crankshaft. The old gasket looks good, clean it with some lacquer thinner and use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill in Stamford, CT on Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 12:55 am:

I'll definitely grab a few pics of the crankshaft before closing her up.

I really don't know how to seal gaskets. How about the ultra black bead. Or thicker? or spread it out so the whole gasket is black and sticky?

How clean should I attempt to get the cylinder heads and valves before replacing the head? What could I do wrong in there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 01:14 am:

Charlie, I would be generous with the amount i use on that gasket in particular, considering its at the lowest part of where the oil accumulates. Like said before, use some lacquer thinner and a little elbow grease and you should be good to go. I also apply some sealant to the bolts that hold the cover in place, if you don't you will probably get oil seepage past the threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 03, 2016 - 10:36 am:

That bead looks like plenty. Wipe your finger across it to make it cover the entire gasket. Also put RTV on the threads of each bolt. Make sure everything is completely clean and dry.

You can see the steps for installing a head gasket here:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/696918.html?1480640568


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill in Stamford, CT on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 04:30 pm:

Finally made it over to the car to get some photos of the crankshaft. Any comments / opinions about the quality or condition are well appreciated. Also posting a couple pics of my fuel bulb. I noticed a slow leak coming from somewhere. This seems like a a trickier repair and maybe just leave a pan beneath it or turn off the fuel petcock when I'm not driving.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 05:28 pm:

Model A crank and rods with special pistons, probably Egge Machine Co. Common conversion not done much anymore with Scat cranks available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill in Stamford, CT on Wednesday, December 07, 2016 - 05:32 pm:

From the work I've done and what I've learned on this forum over the past month or so, I have to say that my Model T is on the very furthest edge of maximum modifications. Model A parts just adds to the list. I knew that the car (inherited) was meant to be a "driver" rather than a show car. Of course it will look nice at local car meets, but it's about being used. I'm feeling pretty good about all the repairs to date. Tough part is that it's in an un-heated, detached garage and the temps are making work over there a bit less friendly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 01:13 am:

I see you have a modified Model A crankshaft installed in your Model T block. The main reason to put a Model A crank in a T block was to get around the T crank breakage issue.
Model A crank rod journals are farther apart than those on a Model T. With an A crank in a Model T, the rods will be offset some relative to the piston. The outer ones are the most offset and usually require one side of the small end of the rods to be narrowed to clear the piston pin bosses. This modification shows in your second picture. So I would not jump to any conclusions about the rods being bent.
Although not the preferred thing to do, many have run for years with this modification without trouble.
The flywheel flange is often moved forward to match the Model T position. It is usually welded back on the crank. It is not uncommon for that weld to fail if not done correctly. Another way to get the flange in the correct position is to re-drill the mounting holes in the pan and move the block forward about 3/8".
With new cranks now available, it doesn't make sense to modify an A crank anymore.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Dill in Stamford, CT on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 08:03 am:

Art - thanks for the analysis and explanation of things. This was done by someone who I can guarantee is a lot smarter than me so I won't question any of it.

One quick question about the flywheel flange. It was noted by Mark in Hillsboro that the horseshoe in front looks modified to accommodate a Scat crank (which is why I posted these later photos). But since a Model A crank has been identified is the thought the same and that the horseshoe has been cut and ground to provide additional flywheel flange clearance?

Again - just curious. Hoping I can get over to the car today and close it all up. Inspection pan first then finish chasing / cleaning out head bolt holes and getting the head back on. But it's getting pretty cold around here and the garage where the car is is detached and unheated. I rent it from a friend so don't feel right putting heat in on his electric bill.

But I love the idea of running a Model T in the cold and snow (maybe snow...). I plan to get regular use out of the T this winter. Some day I'll post a photo from a Christmas card sent decades ago by my Grandmother. It's her, my Grandfather, Dad and Uncle standing outside in the snow by one of many Model T's my uncle had owned in his lifetime (mine is his last). I think my dad and uncle would have been either high school or college age in the photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Thursday, December 08, 2016 - 02:41 pm:

Hi Charlie,
I'm not sure but I think the Model A crank throw may be the reason for the horse shoo modification. The Scat crank has counter weights which interfere with the horse shoo but the Model A does not unless it has had them added. I wouldn't worry about the modification. You might want to do a trial fit with the inspection pan and bolts before the final assembly with the gasket sealer to make sure all is well.
I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of your car and its history. They are always interesting.
Art


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