What year touring is this?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: What year touring is this?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:18 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:20 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:21 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:26 pm:

Looks to be a '23 retrofitted with a 1922 windshield and a 1924 - 25 aftermarket street rod radiator that doesn't fit worth a hoot. At least that is my best guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:32 pm:

Cool car...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:33 pm:

Here's my opinion:

The hole in the quarter panel indicates it's at least a 1921 model year - per the encyclopedia:

"In 1921, the open car bodies were redesigned and at that time the top rest support was changed from the “L” bracket bolted to the top body frame to a plain rod extending through the rear quarter panel."

If the windshield frame is original, that would narrow it down to a 1921 or a 1922 model year, because (again from the encyclopedia):

"1923-1925
“One-man” top. When introduced in September 1922, the Touring top lower edge was a straight line from front to rear. After 100,000, the rear was given a gentle curve downward. Two rear windows, each 8-1/2 x 5-1/2”, with up to 8” between them (there seems to be no standard, they have been seen with anywhere from 3 to 8 inches between them). Now clamped to the top of the windshield posts, eliminating the support straps used earlier. Later 1925 tops had one rear window, as in the 1926-27 models."

Do you know whether the engine is original? If you suspect it is, what is the engine serial number? That might help narrow it down.

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 02:44 pm:

Got a '13-'14 rear end


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

John, are you thinking of adding to your collection???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 04:03 pm:

Not to change the subject, but I'd sure like to know more about that radiator! Not only does it look to be aluminum, but the inlet is off-center to the right, and I don't see the usual filler neck sticking up thru' the radiator shell! All of this to possibly indicate that maybe somebody had figured out a way to replace a Model T radiator with a new radiator costing something less than the current $800 or so that the major Model T parts vendors are charging,.....???

John T. - Can you tell us more about that radiator?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 04:06 pm:

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me too Royce, but with a little work, I'd think that radiator could be made to look pretty good, and maybe for half or less than a Bergs or Brassworks. Just wondering,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 05:57 pm:

@harold it is hiked up on approximately 4 inch shoulder bolts. It makes the bonnet not fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 06:51 pm:

Firewall is 24.5 inches wide. This is Ignacio's touring and we're trying to figure out what year it really is, well as close to it as we can. Harold, can't tell you a thing about the radiator with the exception that I have another friend that bought one and relocated the inlet an the outlet, the blocked the transmission orifices. He can weld aluminum so it wasn't a big cost for him in addition he turned an aluminum spout and welded it on the top also. Frankly I was a bit skeptical about how long it would last because of the vibration and flex that a T has. It was a 4 row. He paid 170 for it with free shipping. To my surprise it has had no issues that I'm aware of and its been over a year. He sent me a picture of it, they now make it with the the spout on top minus a radiator cap. I think I have a picture to upload of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

John,

First the good news, it looks like it will be a fun T just like it is.

Second, from the few photos and postings above it clearly has parts from numerous years – that is not unusual for a T. Henry Ford was almost fanatical about requiring new parts to be able to replace the older model parts. Sometimes it was a direct replacement and other times an owner would need to purchase the related “newer parts” so they assembly would work. For example, Ford discontinued the above the axle wishbone spring perches. So If you ordered are replacement for your 1917 above the axle wishbone in 1927 the dealer would tell you needed to purchase the new style below the axle wishbone along with the matching below the axle wishbone spring perches. You can actually use the earlier spring perches with the later wishbone – see the driver’s side spring perch at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/698904.html But they don’t have the recommended number of threads to safely secure the below the axle wishbone according to Ford.


Without some sort of history on the car, it may be impossible to tell what year it originally started out as. As pointed out earlier in the thread:

1. Oldest part noted so far: Rear axle 1913-early 1915 style (http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rax2)

2. Newest part hot rod radiator appears to be tall style 1924-1927 but it might also be put up on blocks to gain that extra height? Or maybe even a 1928-29 Ford radiator or non-Ford? From the photos I cannot tell. And the home made radiator apron hides how far down it really goes.

3. You commented above: Firewall is 24.5 inches wide. If so, the body should be a 1921-1923 style low cowl body sheet metal and NOT a 1924-25 body. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/202420.html . Note the height of the radiator will probably not be that much help in this case. But for original radiators on the original car can help. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109384.html?1255047908 for radiator numbers.





4. Note the 1921 & 1922 body with the same 3 piece rear tub and straight windshield had a two man top. But from the photos we do not see the body irons for a two man top sticking out of the side of the front seat arm rest. If those body irons for the top were never in the front seat arms, – then the body is a 1923 with an earlier windshield replacing the 1923 slant windshield. What body irons are we talking about? Below are the ones on Blackie our 1915 cut off. I’m not sure how the 1921-1922 ones were mounted, but they would be in the same general area as the 1922 top & top irons/bows will fit a 1915 (wrong cross section for the bows but they will keep the sun off your head).



5. But notice that Ignacio's touring car has “outside door handles” on the 3 doors! It did NOT come from the Ford factory that way. My guess and it is only a guess, the car was fitted with a California style hard top at one point in its life. If that was the case, then it is possible that the body irons for the 2-man top to attach to the front seat may have been cut off when the California top was installed. Lifting the upholstery up on the front seat arm rest should reveal if there is a cut off body iron or a hole/notch in the wood if the top was originally a two man top. If that body iron is found there – then the body would have been a 1921-1922 based on the 3 piece rear section.

6. Wild card – someone may have fitted a 1921-1925 3 piece rear section to an earlier 1915-1920 (and possibly into 1921) front section. It will fit and function ok. 99% of the people will never notice. But the body beading does not line up very well. If someone needs a reference for that, please let me know and I will look for it. I have been transferring files from the old computer to the new one and not everything made the transfer.

Additional comments:

Note the front motor mount & spring clamp is the typical 1909-1920 U-bolt style rather than the 1921-25 (and into 26 & 27 with the added screw hole for a screw to stop the radiator apron from rattling as much).

What type of running board brackets does it have - forged or pressed steel?

Does it still have the switch on the front of the coil box? It would not have come from the factory with both cowl lights and the starter.

Does it have generator engine block?

As others have asked – what is the engine serial number? You can xxx the last three digits and it will still help us date the car & chassis.

Are there any casting dates on the engine?

Are there any body numbers and/or dates on the right front floor board riser?

What kind of rear cross member does it have? (hey if it matches the rear axle it could be a 1913 with the forged brackets – ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#Chassis1 Longer rear cross-member, beginning about 271,425 (May 1913), eliminating the forged body brackets.

Fun observation:

Note the car has the bulge shown in the left rear splash apron before it joins the rear fender area. In theory that went away long before 1923. Bruce said in early 1917 ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/S-T.htm#splap . And the MTFCI judging guidelines 6th edition say Aug 1917 But we see the same thing on a 1924ish touring that Model T Haven had for sale (and looked like that part had been on the car a long time). I saw the photos earlier today, but currently I cannot locate them. It had Red vinyl and lots of surface rust. If I run across it again, I will add it to the posting.

Again, it can be a fun car just like it is. To help Ignacio figure out a likely date for it, additional information is needed and if possible is there any history on the car available?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 09:50 pm:

Ignacio should remove the front seat cushion and take photos showing the lower corners where the irons would be that the support the 2 man top. If it is a 1921-22, I think there should be a part of the iron showing or at least screw holes. He may have to pull a few tacks to lift the side covering. If there is no indication, it would be a 1923. Then it would need a slant windshield, and a one man top. If it is 1921 or 1922 the windshield could be right, along with a 2 man top.

This car could have been a non-electric starter car with the cowl lights and no tire carrier before the 1925 engine was added. Maybe Ignacio could call the former owner in Minnesota and find out some history on the car. It has many mysteries.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Sunday, December 04, 2016 - 10:32 pm:

As I posted in the other thread on this subject.
The dash board on the car is the 1922 and earlier type that doesn't have the taper on the ends and has the exposed bolt where it meets the windshield mounts. Since you don't have a top now and you do have a 1922 type windshield I would call the car a 1922 for the DMV and get top irons and 2 man type top when you can. That radiator is made for a street rod and looks like it has the pressure cap on it. The stock Model T isn't designed for a pressure system. Leave the cap loose so it doesn't pressurize and get a real T radiator, good used or new, as soon as you can or modify this one to a stock T filler and cap.
You could with go with the 1923 style one man top and 1923 & later type dash and windshield if you like it better and call the car a 1923. You can change out most of the other earlier year pre 1922 parts as you work on the car if you want. I don't know what Tx. DMV does about engine numbers. In Ca. where I live I've seen for example a 1926 car licensed with a 1923 engine & number and licensed as a 1926 car. Have fun driving and working on your car no matter what year you call it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 12:30 am:

The motor number is 11755014 which would make the motor 1925. From the discussion it is almost certainly a low radiator that has been hacked with one up on the shoulder bolts that does not fit well. See attached picture.

Hacked radiator.

I looked for a iron for the 2 man top but with my limited experience I don't seem to see any, see picture. How would one obtain a 1923 windshield frame?

No post?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 12:59 am:

What does 1-man versus 2-man convertible top mean?

Also I felt around behind the canvas upholstery for a armrest convertible top support based on the picture with the red arrow and could not find one.

This one has the little hinged storage area in front of the gas tank. Does that date anything?

Would there be a frame number on the passenger side?

Another detail, the passenger side front door fits poorly. It is too big at the top. It has to really be pushed into place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 06:35 am:

The previous thread about this car is located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/698477.html?1480653015

Respectfully added,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 10:42 am:

It looks like you have an oval gas tank, so I'd say it's a '22. Someone must have put that storage area in there. There is no such thing from the factory. It also looks like someone removed all of your top irons. Your car is not a convertible! It's a touring car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:05 am:

@Larry Smith so it wasn't built to have a top of any kind?

Here is another pic of the passenger floor. Where might a frame number hide in that area?

Passenger floor area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:13 am:

Larry,

It's a 23 since it has provisions for a one man top and it is a low cowl / low radiator car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:22 am:

What is the correct radiator to buy for this? Please send link.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:48 am:

1917-1923. If you were going for a perfectly correct T (show car) you'd want round tubes. But I doubt you'd want to do that with this parts salad, so the flat tube radiator is the way to go. Round tube (original style) is correct, but flat tube cools better and costs less.

http://bergsradiator.com/modelt.html

By the way, parts salad is a descriptive term, not derogatory. After 90+ years, most T's have some parts from various years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:56 am:

If it's a 22/23 low firewall can someone show me what the front pivot irons look like? I may have some to help Ignacio out. I assume the rear supports are just a threaded straight post is that correct? Does anyone have a decent used low radiator in the area? I've already committed the one I had to a project for a friends pickup we're building.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 12:50 pm:

I'm going to guess late 1922 or very early 1923. I have a 1922 Roadster and the windshield and cowl lamps look like that one. The dash board with instrument panel also looks like that one.

There were some changes between 1922 and 1923 which seem to overlap. Some of the cars which I have seen which the owners call 1922 have a slant windshield with low radiator. Both slant windshield and high radiator are at least a 1923. So it seems to me that the windshield changed, perhaps in late 1922 but is either sold as a 1922 car by year of first sale, or 1923 because of new year model but sold in 1922. Some 1922 cars were not sold until early 1923 and so were dated as 1923 because of first year of sale. It depends on where the car was sold as to the dating, because in some places the new model which came out in the fall was dated as the following year model and in other places the car was dated by year of first sale.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

@Steve Jelf I was thinking Frankencar but parts salad will do just fine :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

John,

It is a '23, since it has no front top bow irons. The rear ones are missing too. I might have some.

Also the exhaust manifold pack nut is loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:25 pm:

I re-read both threads about this touring car, and I think Hap is correct about this car having a "California" hard top in its past. I think it started as a 1922 touring before the front and rear top irons were cut off or removed. Also, outside door handles were added to the doors to make it easier to enter.(They may have been supplied with the California top.)
The holes in the rear corners are for the top rests and saddles to support the top when its folded down. Those parts are available either original or reproduction.
Because the 1922 type straight windshield is there, I would get the body irons for front and rear and put a 2 man top on it. The paint looks pretty good in the photos. Ignacio may want to tear out the canvas interior, (It looks like some mice have made a home in there.), and install an interior kit before the top is added.
Also, I would install a proper spare tire carrier on the rear, which will locate the tail light and license plate, and get a new Berg's radiator.
Then I would title it as a 1922.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 12:15 am:

Thanks to all for the responses this is fun.

@Jim et al, the interior smells as good as it looks. What are the choices regarding interior kit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 10:48 pm:

Ignacio, The preferred tops and interior kits come from Classtique in Minnesota. If your seat cushion springs are broken down or have rust, you may want to get new springs from Snyder's.
If you can wait until March, most of the items that you may need to fix up your touring can be found at the Chickasha, Oklahoma swap meet. If you order from Lang's, Berg's Radiator, Classtique Upholstery, and some others, I think they will deliver to the swap meet, and you can save the shipping charges. That is only 3 months away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 10:57 pm:

@Jim Rodell, thanks! Seat cushion springs look ok. Urine smell not so much :-(

Still trying to figure out the which top situation. There is definitively no remnants of top irons in the front arm rest...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 11:13 pm:

I have been following this thread,and agree it is a 22 vintage.I have at this time two sets of top bows for a 18-22 touring and one set, in "as found" condition. I can also find (in the shop)the support arms for this car.I also have a rear tire carrier which I could sell. Contact me off line if interested. jackdaron@aol.com


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