Maybe political, but not off topic.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Maybe political, but not off topic.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 10:55 pm:

In the interest of equal time I was curious as to what Tim Kaine had to say about antique cars. I sent him a letter and asked him just that, in particular what he thought of Model T's.

He was good enough to take time from his obviously busy schedule to answer me. Here is his reply:

Dear Mr. Carnegie:

Thank you for contacting me about antique automobiles. I appreciate hearing from you.

Antique automobiles such as the Model T Ford are an integral part of American history and culture. In recognition of the historical significance of automobiles, the Historic Vehicle Association (HVA) is developing a National Historic Vehicle Register to document America's most historically significant vehicles. The register currently contains fourteen historic vehicles, including President Taft's 1909 White Steam Car, President Ronald Reagan's 1962 Willys ‘Jeep' CJ-6, and the 1938 Buick Y-Job.

Building on the HVA's efforts, Senator Gary Peters introduced S. 3381, the National Historic Vehicle Register Act, on September 22nd, 2016. The bill would authorize the Department of Interior to establish a federal register of historic vehicles to document and preserve records of American automotive and motorcycle history. These records would be archived in the Library of Congress. The National Historic Vehicle Register Act has been referred to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources.

While I am not a member of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, I will carefully consider legislation such as National Historic Vehicle Register Act which would affect antique automobiles should they be considered by the full Senate. Thank you once again for contacting me.

Sincerely,

Signature

Tim Kaine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:08 pm:

Somebody posted a press release about the proposed legislation on Facebook, and you can guess some of the reactions. It was taken as Big Brother attempting to register and ultimately confiscate everybody's antique car, and the loony conspiracy theories took off from there. Ain't the internet grand? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:11 pm:

Tom,

Typical politician .....

He did not answer your question.


Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, December 05, 2016 - 11:26 pm:

Me thinks Tim has more time on his hands now, than he did, say a Month ago. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 08:58 am:

Steve. I'm not a conspiracy nut but I do question how such a registry helps the hobby. What will submitting information gain us? Will it be mandatory?

I used to be from Michigan and when you have a Senator that is lock step with the environmental activist you would be right to question absolutely everything that person puts forth and the motive behind it. This same guy introduced the Vehicle Innovation Act which has as one of the objective to reduce vehicle reliance on petro based fuels.

When you have a Senator from a vehicle producing state recommend a registry for vehicles that are opposite what the innovation act proposes, you can see the reasons folks have concern.

Again, what would such a registry provide to the hobbyist?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 09:25 am:

A note about -

"Building on the HVA's efforts, Senator Gary Peters introduced S. 3381, the National Historic Vehicle Register Act, on September 22nd, 2016. The bill would authorize the Department of Interior to establish a federal register of historic vehicles to document and preserve records of American automotive and motorcycle history. These records would be archived in the Library of Congress. The National Historic Vehicle Register Act has been referred to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources."

The current national register for historic places does allow automobiles to be list as an individual historic structures or objects.

However the state historic preservation offices and the feds to date have not been proactive to list an individual automobile. Three years ago I submitted to the Pennsylvania Bureau For Historic Preservation a Model T. After much discussion, it was rejected. Yet the Historic Vehicle Association has been listing vehicles through the Historic Engineering Record. I presented a paper on the National Register and the Automobile in Allentown, Pa in October 2016.

Let's face it, those who show their cars, are looking for recognition for their efforts to preserve a unique icon of America. Listing on the National Register is no different.

more on this later unless this does become political and is removed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 09:26 am:

Freighter,

"Antique automobiles such as the Model T Ford are an integral part of American history and culture."


Looks like an answer to me...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 09:27 am:

My cars are already registered with my state...it's called licensing. It hangs on the back and they have my name and address in a file and when it's due they contact me with a new form and fee to pay so the government is already watching and tracking me.

Cars need to be registered because they kill people! Just look at how registering guns lowered the crime rate and shootings!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 09:38 am:

I don't take to seriously the supposed notion the federal government will do anything to help or promote the Antique car hobby. The answer that was given was a typical political answer that contains the usual maybe, could be, not for sure, we'll see, and etc.

The way they see an 'historic vehicle' is best seen as in a museum setting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen, South Texas on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 09:43 am:


quote:

"The National Historic Vehicle Register Act has been referred to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources."



Wait until they see how much pollution is created by old cars. They may pass it but with restrictions on use--Like never! If a Model T is on the National Register, it becomes a historical asset of the United States and the game changes. You may not even be able to make improvements or changes without permission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 09:56 am:

Yes and No.

"If a Model T is on the National Register, it becomes a historical asset of the United States and the game changes. You may not even be able to make improvements or changes without permission."

1. What are the restrictions, rules, regulations for historic property owners?
From the Federal perspective (the National Register of Historic Places is part of the National Park Service), a property owner can do whatever they want with their property as long as there are no Federal monies attached to the property. You can find this on our website at:
http://www.nps.gov/nr/national_register_fundamentals.htm
However, before this occurs, you can, or the property owner should contact the State historic preservation office (SHPO.) The SHPO is the state agency that oversees historic preservation efforts in their state. There may be state or local preservation laws that they should be aware of before they undertake a project with a historic property.

2. Can I modify, remodel, or renovate, my historic house?
From the Federal perspective (the National Register of Historic Places is part of the National Park Service), a property owner can do whatever they want with their property as long as there are no Federal monies attached to the property. You can find this on our website at:
http://www.nps.gov/nr/national_register_fundamentals.htm
However, before this occurs, you can, or the property owner should contact the State historic preservation office (SHPO.) The SHPO is the state agency that oversees historic preservation efforts in their state. There may be state or local preservation laws that the owner should be aware of before they undertake a project with a historic property.
You can find contact information for the SHPOs at:
http://www.nps.gov/nr/shpolist.htm
If Federal monies are attached to the property then any changes to the property have to allow the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation (www.achp.gov) to comment on the project.

3. How do I apply for grant money or tax credits?
The National Register of Historic Places does not have a grant program ourselves. However, Heritage Preservation Services (a different division of the National Park Service, Cultural Resources Program) does have a tax credit program that may be of assistance to you.

(https://www.nps.gov/nr/faq.htm#restrictions)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 10:10 am:

"Let's face it, those who show their cars, are looking for recognition for their efforts"

I take exception to this broad brush notion that people are looking for recognition. Certainly, I am not. I could give a ding-dong what anybody else thinks about my projects. If I'm investing my time in something, it's because I feel it is worth saving, it's because I find the work entertaining, and if I show it, it's to share and hopefully light a fire in someone else so the work will keep going forward once I'm gone.

No doubt there are people whose motivator is purely "recognition", we hear people all the time in this hobby talking about all the attention their car gets them, but in my circle of friends that sort of mentality is notably absent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 10:24 am:

There is an old saying that "90% of what you worry about never happens." I concur. There is a national registry of historic landmarks. I have not seen the Feds trying to tear down Paul Revere's house because it is energy inefficient. I only wish that an automotive registry was the worst thing that I have to worry about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 10:37 am:

John C.C.,

"90% of what you worry about never happens."


WHAT!?!? Now I've got that to worry about too!

Actually truer words have seldom been spoken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 10:46 am:

Walter H. This was posted by me - part of a longer comment. And it may help give you my opinion on car shows, recognition and the rest.

"A few years ago (34 years ago), I drove a Packard 833 (circa 1931) Coupe to a respected Central Pennsylvania Car show. The car at the time was still running on synthetic S-3 tyres (also known as GR-S (Government Rubber-Styrene)). The car was not restored or rebuilt. I was placed in a class of other classic vehicles of the same year. Next to me was a gentleman with a fresh paint and restored 1930 Buick coupe. In time he came over and started a conversation beginning with "…is the car for sale?", and if it was for sale, he would have had it given a full rebuild and restoration to original condition. He informed me that it was a shame that such a classic car was in such sad shape. This was before the AACA had a Historic Preservation Class (HPOF).

Ever since that day I had the conversation with the owner of the Buick and reading about ( at Pebble Beach ) the Atlantic, I viewed every scratch, stain, and puff of smoke on the cars I own and drive as having its history intact, not erased or having the vehicle to suffer restoration damage. (GJD)"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 11:14 am:

Your comments baffle me, George. You succeeded in leaving your car unrestored despite the absence of an HPOF class. About all I can take away from this, given the National Register information that you posted above, is that you wish to somehow be able to tie federal money to your car project so that you can restrict what future owners wish to do with your car once you're gone. Am I missing the mark?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 11:29 am:

You Missed the Mark. Walter.

1. There are no individual Autos on the National Register.

2. I have a car that is not restored (1931 Packard).

3. I wanted to see if an individual with out corporate backing can list an automobile on the national Register.

4. Just presented to you and other some topics of the National Register and some benefits (grants if eligible).

5. I don't collect trophies or care about entering every show.

And if I spent three years to document and propose my Model T to the national Register.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

Don't care about shows. Hold a level of contempt for the very idea
of "competition" for landfill ribbons and trophies in what I see as a hobby,
supposed to be about fun, not "winning". I'll take original over restored
any time, and I LOATHE the puke that will wield his arrogance for my
unrestored cars as being shameful and unfortunate when compared to
his big bucks restoration paperweights. Bragging rights cars means
fewer of them just being driven. They become all about money spent
and the risks of exposure and no longer about the organic joy of just
being seen going down the road. To my thinking, THAT is shameful and
the biggest misfortune of all. But the hobby is traditionally geared to
see it as "restored is best" and "now we can go try and win prizes" with
it !

But this is getting away from the historic registry discussion ....

For those unfamiliar with the Columbia River Highway, here is a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_Columbia_River_Highway

Built between 1913 and 1922, it truly is a Model T era road. But what
really sets it apart from others was its original intent, which was to be a
tourist-driven SCENIC road first, and a destination-driven throughway
as a distant secondary consideration. So, this road has curls and loops
to fantastic vistas. Tunnels, bridges, and distance-adding sidesteps to
take in any point of interest the builders could find along the route.

Before it was even finished, grumblings had begun about making it
"more practical", and over the course of the next 100 years it had sections
destroyed, straightened, ... all the historically destructive stuff our go-fast
society always does to cool and old.

Today, the remaining sections hide quietly as forgotten backroads, or
as abandoned woodsy trails alongside the constant roar of Interstate 84.
The jones here is that the original reason for its location was the river, and
the steep cliffs along the river that made it so scenic are the same cliffs
and river that put the pinch on space to locate a freeway, but there is a
new twist to the game in recent years .... recreation.

WIth the confined space of the Gorge drawing lots of view seekers and
tourists to the area, people have rediscovered the old road, and abandoned
sections have been refurbished for bicycle and pedestrian use. Links wiped
out by freeway construction have been bypassed so these non-motorized
users can follow more of the route. And there is talk of rebuilding the
Mitchell Point area (blown away to make more room for the freeway) so that
the entire route could again be followed end-to-end from Portland to The
Dalles.

I have family in the Portland area and have traveled this route my whole
life. LONG before I had an old car, I was looking at old photos of T-era cars
along this route and thinking how thrilling it would be to travel THAT road
in cars like those.

As it relates to this discussion, the biggest thrill for me in the historic car
hobby is the history. Not the contrived dog-and-pony show of restoration
and trophy chasing, but the actual use of the vehicles as they were originally
intended to be used. And driving them on beautifully paved and broad boulevards
was not what anyone was historically driving on in 1910 or 1930.

I would love it if the old Columbia River Highway were restored to original
appearance, and what I see a register like what Mr. Pence having use for is
if the old road could be reopened for use by period automobile traffic relative
to its historic time.

Naturally, every bonehead with ANY old car, is going to want to be included
as someone "qualified" to use such a road. We all know the drill of the T-bucket
and other creative misuses for the "Model T" name. It would take some sort
of recognition and registry to keep the road historic and not have it jammed
with clowns in their non-relevant old cars.

Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 12:29 pm:

Pence/Kaine .... sorry, I was distracted ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 12:45 pm:

Okay George, thank you for laying that out.

So, I have a question about #3 on your list: Why?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 12:55 pm:

Here is a link that I posted in 2011 in regards to my thoughts on car shows and awards. I sent it to David Schultz of Hemmings Classic Car Magazine in response to an article that he wrote about awards given at car shows. I never heard back from him

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/213934.html?1306700462


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen, South Texas on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 01:55 pm:

That's nice but the letter is too long. I didn't even bother reading to the end. And I'm not in a busy office. It probably ended up in the same round file as 3-page resumes with no chance of a response.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 06, 2016 - 02:58 pm:

Hi Walter.

To answer your question - 3. I wanted to see if an individual with out corporate backing can list an automobile on the national Register.

Currently the HVA Historic Vehicle Association selects automobiles they consider to be of "Historical Significance" using the same criteria found in listing a structure or building on the national register. The selected vehicle is then listed on the Historic American Engineering Record (HAER)

For reference the national register considers an automobile as a structure. Or it could be argued it is an object.

Using the HVA and the HAER model, it is possible if a Model T of their choosing will be only one - maybe Edison's Model T. That may rule out all other Model T's.

Looking at the National Register, and using State Historical Preservation Offices as the review for local significance any individual or private citizen can submit a Model T with a 50/50 chance of it being listed on the register as an individual structure. Many citizens have listed a lot of log houses with local historical significance.

So I took the time to propose a 1922 Model T Ford.

Burgers information is informative too. If you would take time to look at the nominations of Roads, bridges, Historic Districts or suburbs a fair number of them has a statement to the effect -- "......this historic district has its impetus on the introduction of the Model T Ford."

And as stated, there is not one Model T or one individual Automobile listed separately on the national register.

More later--


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