Timer and pulley install time

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Timer and pulley install time
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Thursday, December 15, 2016 - 10:54 pm:

Sometime in the next few days, depending on when a parts order arrives, I will be working on getting everything on the front of my motor taken care of. It had no timer and no crankshaft pulley when I got the car. I now have everything to complete it, or have it ordered. I will remove the radiator for working room, and begin by installing a new style seal on the camshaft.I have a new/old Tiger timer to go on.The crank pulley will be a used one found on Ebay. I now have the missing control rod for the timer, from the lever on the steering column. New red radiator hoses, clamps,and a new pipe, from radiator to waterpump, are ready to be installed. As best I can tell the only thing I don't have is a belt. I decided to wait and order a belt after I get all the pulleys in place and measure for the correct belt length. I hope that I have not overlooked anything to finish the job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 12:21 am:

It shouldn't take more than a day. That is, unless the pulley is loose. A lot of them are worn and need fixing before they're used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 09:00 am:

Fixing as in cutting a shim from a soda-pop can?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 09:10 am:

Right. Or buying a better pulley from a vendor. One thing to consider is whether the pulley on the fan is the proper mate for the crank pulley. If you use a later crank pulley for example with an early fan pulley you can overspeed the fan which can be dangerous.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 09:28 am:

Can someone tell me the right diameters for the pulleys on a '21?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 09:34 am:

A shim (steel, not aluminum or brass) will work, BUT the pulley should be an easy press fit. A shim may make it so tight it has to be driven on and will be a headache when it has to be removed. One fix is to cut out the center, weld in a piece of tubing or pipe, and machine the inside ID to fit. Another is to weld some fill on the worn inside and machine that. Or you can buy a new pulley. But it will be aluminum and costly. Best to wait and see what the eBay pulley is like. It may mot need anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 09:44 am:

1921 takes the larger crank pulley (3"). That's a good thing for you, because it's a lot more plentiful than the earlier, smaller one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 10:04 am:

Lang's lists the pin for '17-27 models for 3 1/2"
pulley, '17-27 pulley (split) as 3 3/4". I guess the split pulley closes up to the right size. I guess I'll see what I get, like Steve says.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 04:34 pm:

Tommy, don't forget to install a modern seal on your crank pulley Before you put the pulley on. Since you have everything off it's supper easy and will guarantee you won't have oil leaking out the front crank shaft.

Here's a quick link to the idea
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/398528.html?1383356105

I personally use more tabs and make the seal look like a daisy flower. Clean the surface and use Ultra Black by Permatex to glue the seal on backwards

You can google for more info


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 05:01 pm:

What number is the seal? Would a seal with the same ID and a larger OD work, giving more surface to "glue" to? What is the diameter of the shaft?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 06:31 pm:

Tommy, this might help from an earlier post.

""Here are 3 different seals that will work at the front crank:

1. A C/R #12458
This is the thinest one

2. Chaffin has #3012M which has a very nice design but slightly thicker for 7 or $8.
A NAK #TB-H 1.187 1.828 0.375

3. A National 3438R
This one is a heavier and wider seal.

The method I had to use was to cut and fan outer flat of the seal and install it facing the wrong way because of the clearance issue. This sort of made it look like a daisy but also gave it a lot of surface. I never had a leak there again. You can barely see it and I liked that. The neopreme seals have a spring that applies some slight tension against the surface which provides some longevity to the seal.

The great thing about the seal on the outer surface is that in case you have to remove the front cover it is not locked in place by the crank and oil pan!

Yes the sealing surface should be as good as possible and use some fine emery cloth if needed""

I can email you a picture if you need it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 07:38 pm:

Save the paperwork on the new pulley you buy if it is aluminum because you may be returning it. Most of the new aluminum pulleys are adjustable and can fit well. Most cannot be used on a car that you want to crank. The pin is usually too close to the back of the pulley and the ratchet will not connect onto the pin in the crank shaft. Just my .02.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 06:22 am:

The one bought is an original, used pulley. Since I don't have it yet, question... Is the hole(s) for the pin tapered in the pulley? I know the holes in the crankshaft and the pin are tapered. So the pulley will only fit right one way , not 180 degrees out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:39 am:

I don't know how this "tapered" story got started, but it seems to be one of those Model T superstitions that won't die.


There is no taper. Three of the pulley's holes are large enough for the pin to fit through. The fourth isn't. It's for driving the pin out when it has to be removed.


Obviously this pin is too short. It's the #3040 pin for the smaller pulley, and is used here just for illustration. The one for your larger #3963B pulley (like this one) is #3040B. You will find that it's .3725" at both ends for a slip fit into the .375" hole in the crank shaft. No taper. The pulley is symmetrical. It doesn't care which way it faces. Unlike a timer rotor, there's no need for it to be oriented in a certain direction.


(Message edited by steve_jelf_parkerfield_ks on December 17, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 03:55 pm:

I have read several times, different places, that the pin, which I already have but have not measured, is tapered. Gee, I read it on the internet so I thought it was true. You can't put something on the 'net if it's not true, right? Thanks Mr Jelf.
Actually I'm sitting here at the PC waiting for the mail-man to show up with parts I have ordered.

Please Mr Postman...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 04:54 pm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=425GpjTSlS4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 10:59 pm:

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking about. Mr Postman was good to me today. He (or she) brought the lower radiator pipe from Lang's and an inner front wheel bearing. I now have all I need to install the right tapered bearings , including the threaded outers. I will be removing and replacing the front wheels one more time before the first drive. It's a good day to be me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 05:18 pm:

We had the # 12458 seal in stock at the NAPA store where I work. I'm just waiting on the pulley now.[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/1218161652_zpssgqmv63v.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/1218161652_zpssgqmv63v.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
I do plan to clean the front of the engine, especially the camshaft and crankshaft, and paint the areas the get painted while the radiator is off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 05:34 pm:

Looks like that front cover could use some derusting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 05:45 pm:

While you're waiting for parts, shouldn't the bolt directly under the camshaft be turned over to reduce the chance of the timer terminals contacting it over the full range of timer movement?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 01:26 am:

Derusting would be included in " I do plan to clean the front of the engine".
Probably right about the bolt.
After I posted the picture I thought that maybe I'm posting too much , again. You all don't need to know every move I make on this car, but if I hadn't put that pic on I might not have noticed the bolt being upside down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 06:48 am:

Whoever assembled the front cover last time has one of the bolts installed upside down. The pan bolt with the arrow must have the nut on the bottom side. Otherwise the timer wires short out against that nut at certain positions. Make sure that you put it back together right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 08:14 am:

Thanks all. I have turned the bolt around already. I wish I had somebody close by that knew Ts just to look over these steps in putting mine back together. Soon, I will be putting my new driveshaft and new pinion gear in the car. I would really like another pair , or two, of eyes watching then.Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 07:44 pm:

My pulley came today. I was able to put it on by hand with some twisting and turning, the pulley, not me. Should it fit so tightly that I had to use a hammer? Should I put some Loctite on it? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:54 pm:

Tommy, a tight fit is good. You don't want any play there. Loktite will help, but you may need a little heat if you ever have to pull the pulley off again. Be wary when using a hammer. It is easy to burr something and make the job even more difficult. I suggest you use a drift rather than well placed hammer blows, which can be a little off at times.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 10:00 pm:

Tapping with a hammer and drift is fine. If it takes a lot of heavy blows, the thing will be hell to get off when you have to remove it.


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