Centerdoor question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Centerdoor question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 01:52 pm:

How are the lift straps in the rear windows of my '22 Centerdoor supposed to go? When the window is up there does not seem to be any way to hold them up. The earlier cars had a hook the strap attached to but there is no hook or grommet in the strap on my car. The car is an original unmolested car so I don't think anyone changed anything in the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 02:11 pm:

once up the window should push out then catch on a ridge of the window opening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 02:23 pm:

True...and sometimes you have to pull UP harder on the strap to be able to push the window OUTWARD to catch on the ridge (or lip).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

I don't believe a '22 would have the material lift straps as our '19 does - I believe they had a lift-up knob and slot, if you will, arrangement on each side of the window track - one pulled out on the knob away from the slot and adjusted the window accordingly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 02:39 pm:

My mistake - I re-read the statement regarding the "REAR" windows - previous information posted before me is correct - pull up & push out to catch the ledge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 03:53 pm:

Steve, the Centerdoor that I am presently "caring for" is the one described in Bruce's "Bible". Although it now has a new fabric interior, the front and rear window straps are the same as was in the book....maybe someone before Dave. S. changed things around (but I don't think so).

It is a 1922 model..



(Message edited by adave on December 16, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, December 16, 2016 - 10:08 pm:

According to information available in the Model T Encyclopedia, the '22 model Centerdoor had the lift-up w/knob arrangement window risers and metal covered pillars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 09:40 am:

As others have pointed out so often (many thanks for all your research and compiling of records Hap, John R., Dave S. Dave H., ESPECIALLY Bruce W. McCalley (R.I.P.), and more), assigning a particular feature to a specific year of a Model T is somewhat challenging....Henry's company sometimes made changes during the model year. Moreover, there were different manufacturers of the "same" body style.

Example - quoting from Model T Ford The Car That Changed The World (Bruce's "Bible") ...

pg. 292:..."Furthermore, there are similar variations between manufacturers of the bodies."

and:

"For ease in listing here, the "1922" models will refer to the later 1922 and 1923 bodies, while the other references will be to the 1916 thru early 1922 cars.

and, more specifically, on page 294 :

" The door on this 1922 Sedan still has the window strap. This car was made in early February 1922, later in the year the "lever and notch" system replaced the straps in the doors and front quarter windows....." (That's the car in my pictures above).

To paraphrase the "always an optimist" machinist of the Forum, I do not wish to criticize Steve's findings, since we are both correct in our postings.

The purpose of this post is to emphasize that frequently the auto "as came from the factory" can be somewhat different than a different factory's product. This difference can sometimes be most frustrating when one orders a part from one of the vendors only to find that "it doesn't fit my car". While it certainly is possible that the manufacturer of that part did not adhere to Ford's specifications, it is also possible that the buyer of said part has a body made by Boudette and the vendor is selling a part for the same model and year, but made to fit a different manufacturer's body.

Such is one of the many challenges when trying to restore a vehicle to "as new condition". Kudos to those Stynoski Award winners who succeed!
(Larry S. - it is quite challenging to know just what is "original", isn't it?)

Merry Christmas, and a Healthy New Year to all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:32 am:

Was any of this information helpful to remedying your window dilemma, Val ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 02:07 pm:

Val,
Sorry for a late reply, but I have a '22 centerdoor, which was a solid original, with exception to the fact that mice moved into it before I found it, so I'm re-upholstering it.

To answer your questions:

1)- How do the rear/qtr windows stay up and what to do with the strap?
*- The rear quarter windows only have (2) positions. All the way up inwhich you push the bottom of the window out and it rests on a ledge. The second is approx. 3/4 way down. There are no other positions.

If you notice, the metal sill plate has a slot in the center of it. The strap attaches to the bottom of the window frame and comes up between the window and the sill. When the window is all the way up, you take the strap and fold it, then slip the end into the slot. The strap stows behind the rear qtr/panel and out of sight. To lower the window, you pull the strap out of the slot and lower the window. This slot will not hold the window in any other position, again, it's only used to stow the strap when the window is all the way up. See photos:

Window is all the way down

Window is all the way up, strap folded/stowed away

Stowed strap (behind panel [removed]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 02:26 pm:

Regarding upholstery material to use on a 22 centerdoor, I will offer what I did. My '22 had gray striped material, which you cannot find anymore and upholstery kits do not have the same pattern.
I found that LaBarron-Bonney had material which was very close, with exception that the original material had a black and white stripe on gray, this material has navy blue and white on gray. The blue was dark enough that it really didn't make any difference to the look. In their catalog, the material is part # 15-66-1.
For the gimp running around the edges of the door panels, originally, it was taupe with dark brown stripe in a candy-cane pattern. I could not find that anywhere. I used LaBarron-Bonney coachlace, lighter brown with gray pattern, part # 61-H
The results gave an appearance which was much closer to original than any of the kits that I've seen available. Photos of seat, panel and close up of the gimp;


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 02:45 pm:

I owned for many years a 1923 Model T Coupe that was made in April of 1923. It had the 1922 style body which was continued until mid 1923 when the new Tudor, the Fordor and the new coupe bodies were introduced. This Coupe had window straps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 03:42 pm:

Thanks to all of you for the great information. My car was made in May of '22 so I only have the strap in the rear. It is an unmolested car but what threw me initially is that one strap was stowed the way Les shows his and the other was just hanging loose. The one that was stowed in the door is very hard to get loose to lower the window so I assumed it was not supposed to be that way.
Les the gimp you used looks like it would be a reasonable replacement when I redo the headliner. My interior is otherwise in great shape except for the drivers seat that is torn in a few small places. If someone has any scrap material from a recovered seat I would love to have it to patch mine. Redoing it with what is available in the kits would make it stick out like a sore thumb. I was amazed to find that the interior was originally grey as mine looks brown. It was only after I removed the rear seat and saw the original color of the fabric in the back and sides where it was never exposed to sunlight that I realizes it was grey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

Val, The straps are very difficult to pull out of the panel and not a great design. The trick is to not mash them all the way in, but keep a small little hump sticking up, so you have something to grab.

I plan to use the same gimp around the headliner and will also use it to make the windlace along the doors.

My upholstery also looked brown but discovered it was faded too. When I took it out, I saw the dark gray original color. That's what I tried to match up with.

Val: How much original material are you looking for? Are you looking for original material? Let me know what you need, as I saved all the original material from my car: seat covers, door panels. It's faded and a few stains. My headliner was completely shot, but there are some scraps from that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 05:37 pm:

Great looking upholstery job, Les! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Sumner lapeer mi on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 09:44 am:

This is what I made for my centerdoor on my wifes sewing machine. About 60 yards running the material thru 3 passes. Les Sumner (no I don't plan to do that again)
c door trim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Sumner lapeer mi on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:39 am:

This is my sample display.I save little samples of details from my c door and show what I used to replace them. The background material is what I used for upholstery .Les
display


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:43 am:

Great idea, thanks! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 11:40 am:

Les that would be great if you have some remnants that would work. I don't need very much as the drivers sear bottom has a couple of rips and one corner of the drivers seat back has a little hole. I was hoping to find a piece of original material that was faded like mine and then use it to sew a patch where the material is torn to keep it from getting any worse. I really just need enough so I can locate it over the holes in a way that will match the patter as close as possible. If you had the remnants of a seat bottom or a piece of the rear seat back that would probably be enough. Here is a picture of the corner that needs repair. There is another section that does not show that is about the same size


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 11:47 am:

Val, sent you a PM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 11:49 am:

Les Sumner, your trim looks fantastic and about identical to original. I'm jealous!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 03:14 pm:

Val and Galen: photos sent to your e-mail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Galen West - Halfway OR on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 09:10 pm:

Les Summer, You did a wonderful job on that trim!! I have a few questions about your procedure. What material did you use to put your pattern on? I ask my wife to look at your work. She is a very good seamstress. Wow! was her response. What stitch or pattern did you repeat? Thanks Les, Galen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Sumner lapeer mi on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 07:45 am:

Galen, I used carpet binding material for the trim lace.The outside 2 passes on the design were done with a double needle using a stitch off the chart on the sewing machine. The 3rd pass is the chevrons down the center. It also was a stitch off the chart that I had to adjust the needle stitch size a little. The machine is a memory craft 4000. I estimate I sat at that machine for about 12 hours total running that material thru, then a couple more hours clipping the little threads connecting the chevrons. Next was sewing the cord into some of the lace and finally sewing the pieces together to make the required final product. Thank you for the complements. Les


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