Magneto coil

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Magneto coil
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:00 am:

Yesterday was a disappointing day. We had worked to fit a rewound magneto coil to a 14 or 15 Canadian block. We got the clearances to proper specifications and charged the magnets. The crankcase fitted just fine and we were trying to install the hogs head. We couldn't get it down between the back of the block and the magneto coils. It was about 4 inches too high and also too far forward to get it to fit. This is an aluminum hogs head with an inspection plate shaped wider in front than in back. No starter on the hogs head.

Upon removing the hogs head we found that the old magneto ring frame was rounded on the front edge toward the block and the new one was square. It was the shape of the magneto coil frame which kept us from installing the hogs head.

Is anyone familiar with this type of magneto coil? The windings are thicker than most and apparently the frame sets farther forward than the others. However the spacing from the magnets is correct.

Lang's has been very kind to us and will exchange the ring for us free of charge.

This is the earliest car I have worked on and the only Canadian car. Does anyone know that that magneto ring would actually fit? It is described in the catelog as a 1915 double stack oval.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:23 am:

Are you installing the hogshead with the Exhaust manifold on?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:24 am:

The manifold is off.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 02:01 pm:

Norman,
Could it be a Fordson coil ring??

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 03:37 pm:

Being Canadian makes no difference, if it's double stack, oval and the cast ring, would be the right one, part #3250C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:35 pm:

I have never installed a double stacked magneto ring, but I wondered where the extra space for the wire came from.
A quick review of the hogs heads in the Encyclopedia show no change to account for the extra space needed for the wider coil. Also I have not seen any mention of differences between blocks to account for any difference in widths of the mag coils.

I just happen to have a double wound early pressed steel mag ring and a single layer cast ring. I measured them. They are different heights, the double wound is 1-1/2" thick while the cast is 1" thick.





What did Ford do to move the flywheel 1/2"?

I see nothing about changes to the block or transmission to compensate for the 1/2" difference between the magneto coils?

How can this be??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 17, 2016 - 11:52 pm:

Thinner magnets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 01:48 am:

Norman said he could set the coil - magnet gap right so the total high of the coil ring fit his engine. It is the back (motor block side) of the frame that is different. The original is rounded and the replacement is square.
I still think he get a Fordson tractor coil ring. I never see one but I have seen a few early tractors. Here is why I think it is Fordson. Watch the way the transmission is connected to the engine.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 02:03 am:

I'm not familiar with the Fordson tractor magneto set ups, but parts books seem to show a different bolting arrangement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 02:10 am:

Here are Langs photos of the fordson coil ring.
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:48 am:

Thinner magnets can't account for all the 1/2" difference, are the spools shorter as well?
If the spools and magnets are thinner, then the brass bolts must be shorter. Lots of minor differences.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:58 am:

The distance between the back of the ring where it mounts to the block and the front of the poles is the same and it fits with 35 thousandths shim. Just about the same amount of shims as the one which was on it before. However the side toward the engine is closer to the block at the outer edges and is cut square instead of rounded. Therefore the hogs head won't fit. The hogs head is both farther forward and too high.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 04:28 pm:

Unless there were differences in the Fordson tractor mag rings the one that I had and sold to the Fordson Tractor parts site only had 3 mounting holes. I sent them a picture of it and they told me they needed it for a restoration. Sold it to them for 50.00.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 04:44 pm:

Norman you mentioned the "one that was on it before". Do you remember for sure if it was exactly like the one you have now? It sounds like they sent you the wrong one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 05:40 pm:

Time for photos. We are going blind folded trying to guess what you have or don't have. Are you installing a cast iron or aluminum hogs head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 06:54 pm:

He said it was aluminum.One of the very few original HCCT's l have ever been around had a different mag ring casting.I wonder if that is it?Fordson l worked on did not have T mag ring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 08:15 pm:

The replacement coil assembly was sent back to Langs. Sam, the grandson of the owner of the car took pictures of both mag coils, but he is not here. I won't be seeing him until the second replacement coil comes. Then we will put it back together and into the car.

The coil ring which was on the car looks exactly like the ones I have rewound and replaced before. This engine has a starter ring on the flywheel and the coil we removed has a notch for the starter. However the hogs head is aluminum and has no starter. I think the former owner who had rebuilt it in the 1950's installed that flywheel and mag ring thinking that some time in the future it could be converted to a starter by just replacing the hogs head.

I haven't checked the engine number but the owners did check it and it was either 1914 or 1915 Canadian. The engine does not have a generator on it and has the small pulley for the fan belt with a narrow front crankcase. Anyway, I have never before seen a magneto ring like that replacement one. I have seen one with wider copper strips and deeper windings but the outside edge toward the block was rounded like the later ones and no problem with placing a 26-27 hogs head on it.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 03:29 am:

I put right gears on all my early T's for the day when I can't hand spin them. That is commonly done and we did swap the hogshead on the 16 roadster and put a starter hogshead on and it worked just fine so it really isn't something weird that is way different between the aluminum cover and the iron starter type cover. Those are commonly interchanged so far as I am aware of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 07:04 am:

A magneto chart, Compliments of Coilman.

Chart


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 07:25 am:

I have a '14 Canadian engine in the garage disassembled right now. It has round double stacked coil ring (just got it back from Total Recoil) and the thinner 5/8" magnets. I think '15 US and Canadian would be identical, they should have the same thinner 5/8" magnets and double stack oval coil ring.

Any of the coil rings fit inside any hogshead. I wonder if you were perhaps trying to install the hogshead with the magneto post installed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:23 am:

Here is the 1914 double stack unit next to a typical later oval single stack coil assembly. Both were rewound by Total Recoil this year. The 1914 double stack unit has a cast iron from, different from the 1912 - 13 version that has a stamped steel frame:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:59 am:

The stamped steel "plate" with bolt-on poles was used until late in 1912. At that time, Ford introduced a new, short-lived stamped plate style with the pole assemblies (with windings) riveted to the plate rather than bolted to it. This was used along with the earlier, bolted style as well as the cast style on the left in Royce's photos, which quickly replaced both of the stamped plate styles and continued until September of 1914 when the oval double stacked style appeared, in conjunction with the 3/4" thick magnets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 11:41 am:

The one which won't fit looks similar to the one on the left shown by Royce, however the posts were oval like the one on the right. The one we took off the car looked similar to the one on the right in the picture. You will notice the frame is more narrow at the outer edge and rounded, where the one on the left is square. The magneto contact is off the hogshead. The actual coil ring fits closer to the block than the one we took off but the clearance to the magnets is correct. Anyway, we have ordered a later one and hopefully, it should fit.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 04:26 pm:

Are you trying to install the hogs head while the engine is in car? or is the engine out on the stand?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 04:36 pm:

Are you trying to drop the HH straight down or tilt it from rear to front as you put it on?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 06:05 pm:

The engine is on the stand. It all started out when the owner went to install new band linings in the transmission. He removed the hogshead. He brought the bands to my place to install the lining. We went back to his garage because he wanted me to look at the drums. They looked very good. I said, I think you should jack up one rear wheel and turn the crank so you can inspect the drums all the way around. When he did that, he found that the low drum had a crack all the way across.

Then we trailered the car to my garage and pulled the engine and transmission. We were able to locate a good used drum and I suggested to him that while it was apart, we adjust the rod bearings and replace the magneto winding and recharge the magnets. We also checked the 4th main. The cams on the pedals are also in good shape.

The rod bearings are excellent and we only removed 1 thousand shim on two and the others left just as they were. Everything went as planned. We put on the crankcase and everything lined up properly with the 4th main. Then we rotated the engine to install the hogs head and that was when we experienced the problem. The coil frame is definately different from the one which we removed.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Monday, December 19, 2016 - 07:55 pm:

It sounds like your 4th main is in place while installing your hogs head. Try removing the 4th main, this will allow the hogs head to get more forward and aft movement, maybe allowing the hog head to drop on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 08:57 pm:

The exchange magneto coil came this morning and we got everything together and the hogs head fits correctly. The engine is now in the car and just need to bolt everything together and put on the radiator and it should be good to go. Hope to accomplish tomorrow. Hope it does not rain tomorrow after we get it running so they can drive it home. Here it has been raining off and on for about a week. We went from drought to flood in a week and tomorrow they say there might be snow at higher elevations.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 09:02 pm:

Still would be nice to see what you had that was making for a tough time. Glad to hear that it's almost done. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 12:02 pm:

An update, we finished the work Monday and they drove the car home, about 5 miles.
Norm


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