Because this forum is so popular and many folks seek it out for information and count on us for helpful guidance I believe the following facts and truths must be stated once and for all:
A properly built and maintained Model T engine does NOT require the following items:
1. fuel additive
2. special coolant
3. special motor oil
4. water pump
Also, 12 volts is NOT an "upgrade". It is, in fact, an alteration of the original electrical system.
In addition, any car that has had "one repaint in the 1950s" is NOT an original car. Same for a Model T with flowered upholstery from the 1970s.
It matters not if you modify and alter your T but the above facts can NOT be disputed. Let's be sure we properly educate folks, especially the newbies.
And lastly, it's:
1. axle - not "axel"
2. Ruckstell - not "Ruxstel" and etc.
Thats quite a volley. Prepare for incoming.
While I agree with you, good luck on getting a complete consensus on this!
Back in my Model A days there were many folks "upgrading" to an alternator. Never could figure that one out, the original generator on mine worked just fine and I could easily repair it if it didn't.
And then I think of when Chrysler took over Dodge Brothers and upgrade their original 12 volt system to the "modern" 6 volt system!
Oh, and while we're on Axle; There, Their and They're are three different words. Also Break is what happens when your Brakes don't work.
Back to our regular programming!
Tim,you forgot Doctors' coupe.Makes my nether regions dip snuff when I hear or read that.
Is it hunting season yet ?
Yep - it's wintertime again!
While I agree with most of the things listed my personal preference is for a car with decent paint. Not into the rust look. I'm not sure if it's possible to find a never repainted car with paint that would satisfy me. I've had 3 T's all decently coated. The second one more than once. Never claimed anything like originality though. No need. They looked good to me and it was a large factor in my purchases. And sales too I'm sure.
Tim - Here's another,......one spring leaf is just that,....a leaf. Any more than that are spring "leaves",.....NOT "leafs"!
And, not to be a "broken record", as I've mentioned this before, but it's "ammeter",....not "amp guage", or "amp gage", or "amp meter". An ammeter is no more an "amp guage" or an "amp gage" than a "speedometer" is a "speed guage" or a "speed meter"!
Are you suppose to say oil or all or ull or ________
Its often entertaining to see the battle lines drawn over water pumps, 12 volt starters, paint color, etc : Even the mere whisper of an E-Timer will start a regional war.
Totally agree with Tim.
And don't even think about painting a model T (Pre-1926) with a paint gun! Dip the hood, fenders, splash aprons and running boards in a large vat of paint (vegetable oil based coloured varnish for car built before 1924, Nitrocellulose lacquer after that)to be original, and flow the colour onto the body from a hose connected to an overhead vat.
"The 'PC pendulum' IS swinging back", isn't it?
Merry CHRISTMAS, everyone!
My take is don't sweat the small stuff. Fix your T the way you want and run it the way you like. Don't worry about the opinions of others, use your head to think and keep on going down the road.
"Happy Winter Solstice Eve" to you too. Dan
What if it was repainted in the late 20s? ;)
Its cool as long as they were using O.E.M., N.O.S. paints!
Count me in Tim! Another one I've never been able to figure out is where did TURTLE DECK come from?
As long as the participants play along in the same sand box the board of directors will not delete any threads. How vanilla !!
I am a life member of the MTFCA and will do what I want to make my '26 Runabout to run reliable as I see fit, also not to detract from the outward appearance of an original off the assembly line Model T. I respect those who are true purists, and respect those who aren't., but will not put up with those who consistently post bogus untruths and downright lies on topics/products they have no experience/knowledge.
If this is unacceptable, so be it. I am entitled to my opinions based on my knowledge & experience.
Spell check and terminology! Whew! Tough crowd for a new guy! And then there is that opinion thing.
Merry Christmas to all
Drive safe and often
Sounds like a Reedad to me!
Happy Last Day of Autumn
Do you have safety glass in you T ?
Do you have 1920's oil in your T ?
Not sure that some miss-spelled words should be classified as some devious form of misinformation,..its just called bad spelling, which I'm sure everyone is capable of doing at some point when posting here. I'm in the camp that you should do whatever the hell you want with your T as long as it makes you happy.
I am also with Tim........ But, when my T sets for 6 months or more I think it needs. Fuel additive.
I use a special coolant, it's the cheap green stuff that mixes with any water or any other antifreeze.
I also use a special oil. It is the cheapest 5-30 stuff that Walmart sells.
Will my under seat hot water heater still work without a water pump.?
Folks often use LOL when they really aren't laughing out loud, but this one did it for me. LOL.
Unless you have been warehousing drums of oil since the 1920s, you are using "special oil".
Were any LBGT Syrian refugees denied bathroom access during the
production of this thread ?
Anybody got some 1926 nos air laying around? I'd like to buy some for my tires. It just don't seem right riding on modern air.
Hey guys, I've found some great comedy on this forum many times but this post ranks right up there.
Well you can tell its winter time...lots of attention to the forum. The original forum...not the new fancy dan forum.
I'm in the let the owner decide what they want to do with their vehicles. That being said, I have never seen a Hot Rod that I liked better than the original auto manufactured car. I also think that to me the most important thing is driving my Ts. So anything that helps me keep driving them is fine with me.
ps: I didn't notice anything about Rocky Mountain brakes or heaven forbid disk brakes
Is this a Russian attempt to disrupt our Forum? Enquiring minds want to know. Anyways, I hope all the apostates and purists have a great Christmas and that all your miles driven in the New Year are safe ones (because that's what really matters).
I use the word "Original" to differentiate from such things as street rods. I do not use it in any attempt to fool someone into believing the paint was applied in 1918 or 1922. If this term is not acceptable, please suggest an alternative term, preferably one word, that CAN acceptably be used to differentiate from a street rod.
Around here, the street rod crowd vastly outnumbers the "Original" crowd. You tell someone you have a Model T and they say, "Oh, are you a member of the Dixieland Cruisers?" You might say, "No, I'm more into "Original" cars than street rods."
So please, suggest an acceptable alternative term, that could easily be used in the sentence above in place of the word "Original".
Hal, Being from the street rod crowd of the 50's, I never remember addressing my street rod as an "Antique" 32 Ford coupe. Today when someone asked what I have I state that I have an "antique" 26 Model T Ford Coupe. There is an unwritten rule that your car has to be at least 51% "original" to be an antique. I think the last time I checked, I'm running right around 52% but happy as a lark with my car. Bob
Hal, perhaps the adjective "Preserved" would be a more accurate description than "Original".
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Happy New Year to all!
(Happy Festivus for the rest of us )
In a word-CRAP!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
I use the term "Period correct" or close as possible to period correct that I can be within my budget and tell that to anyone who inquires about my cars.
So if "one repaint in the '50's" does NOT make it an original car, then I guess that the qualification for MTFCI's coveted Stynoski award which is "exactly as it left the factory" i.e. original, ...meaning NEW paint, etc., is all a bunch of bunk? Sure would hate to disappoint Bob Richmond and his gorgeous, recently painted, shiny '12 Touring that also sports a rear axle so smooth and shiny you can see yourself in it!
I also agree with Charlie B about "nice paint" and Aaron on the need for fuel stabilizer for long term storage. Before I started using it in my '94 T-bird for winter storage, it wouldn't barely run come spring, engine light came on, etc. Not any more. Thanks Sta-bil!
I stand by my original post. Everything stated is a matter of fact.
My point was not to bash anyone who alters their T. I have no problem with that and find it interesting what those folks do.
My wish is to EDUCATE. Often times a newbie seeks out the forum to ask questions about "upgrading" their new car because he has fell victim to all of the nonfactual senseless "truths" that the Model T has to be altered to operate correctly.
I believe we need inform folks who are new to the hobby and those who have been misinformed that the Ford Model T operates and functions superbly as originally built.
This is what I am trying to convey.
(Message edited by Antique_iron on December 21, 2016)
So if I read this right the only pump a "T" came with was the one you use to inflate the tires, and If I want to repaint my car I'd better get busy on the time machine thing....dang it the wife sold my last flux capacitor at our last garage sale.
G.R. Cheshire- you did not read this right...
You really believe you're "stating this once and for all"? I'm hoping to take you at your word.
I like my water pump. My T likes it's water pump. Henry Ford was just saving a dollar so he could pay his workers Five Dollars a day.
Seriously, I basically agree with Tim, but then, "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" (if the car is original). If it needs paint, paint it. I doubt that Henry designed the original paint to last a century. A repaint every half-century or so is maintenance (to me).
Tim, i agree with your later post. My T works fine as it was built. Only upgrade thats planned is new thrust washers. The original ones are a little pricey as seen on an earlier post! LOL as for distibuters,water pumps ,12 volt ect... to each his own.
Now I am afraid to post on here because I do not know the difference between there or their and to or too etc. English was not my proudest grade on my report card.
Not to worry - "Spelchek" is always a good scapegoat!
And while we're at it....What about New Mexico. It's not new and it's not Mexico....what's up with that?
Regards and Merry Christmas..Scott
Now I don't know what I have. My 14 has most of the hard parts on it that it left the dealership with, so I guess that makes it mostly original. But has been repainted in the 50's and the upholstery was replaced in the early 60's so I guess its restored. When I slide under the car the underside of the splash aprons has original paint, so I guess the the splash aprons either partly original or partly restored. All I know is that it is joy to drive and thats what it is all about!!
This is probably not the place - but if you want a comment on provenience, history and originality for my T, this states why the water pump is part of the car.
"...a very rare brass era find." ? On second thought, Tim may be on to something......
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1907-Ford-Other-Model-N-Runabout-Brass-Era/142205063715? _trksid=p2046732.c100040.m2060&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1 %26asc%3D20140107095009%26meid%3Dd03ac70fb39644258047922b541c2bd9%26pid%3D100040 %26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D252690667719
I agree with the sprit of Tim's original post. However, I can do without some of the strict terminology that some have been harping on here lately. If someone says "amp gauge", you know damned well what they meant. Answer the question, or don't, but it is quite obvious what the question was. I will admit, though, that there are occasional posts on here that are borderline failures in communication. I've seen some that the spelling and grammar are just so bad, you couldn't tell what the person was trying to say. And I'm not talking about someone from a foreign country whose first language is not English.
I've posted on the classifieds, but no response yet. I'm looking for some 1915 air to put in my replacement tires so that at least part of them I can call original.
And I read with interest the threads and posts on oil sight gauges. Odd... no one refers to them as oil sightometers. But I read here that they should. Hmmmmm.....
I'm gonna take my ball and go home now.
HISTORICAL PRESERVATION OF ORIGINAL FEATURES (HPOF) CLASS
AACA Board of Directors in 1987 established a program to encourage the saving
and display of collector vehicles in their original, as-manufactured condition.
The Historical Preservation of Original Features program encourages owners of
vehicles 35 years old and older, retaining significant original features to allow them
to remain in this original condition, and to show them at National Meets. A vehicle
may be entirely “original” or it may have certain “original” features such as paint,
chassis, upholstery, engine compartment, etc., that are essentially as delivered.
These vehicles will not be point judged. They will be certified using a percentage
system which includes a total average percentage of the original features of the
exterior, interior, chassis and engine. The vehicle must receive a score of sixty-five
percent (65%) or above to receive certification.
They will be recognized at the awards ceremony and will receive an exhibition
award (and a mounting board at first certification).
A certification badge will be presented to each vehicle upon acceptance into the HPOF category. The badge should be mounted at some visible location on the front of the vehicle. Vehicles
Entering the HPOF category will be prohibited from future registration in any other competition
or exhibition class. If the vehicle is restored, certification in HPOF category will be voided.
No previous National First Prize winners are accepted. An HPOF certified vehicle that is significantly restored will lose its’ HPOF certification. HPOF certification remains with the vehicle even
if there is a change of ownership.
I am simply amazed at the number people on this thread who have totally missed the point of my original post.
It's no small wonder how misinformation gets spread through the ranks...
The car should only carry drivers and passengers born in 1927 or earlier. And they should be dressed in garments made before those dates.
This whole post is a Reedad!
Your point may have been clouded by the "word from on high" tone of your original posting. Your 8:51AM clarification is a better interpretation of your message, but nobody reads between the lines. They look at your original statement, then cruise to the last comment, then post away.
Tim - for the most part, I DO believe folks understood what you were trying to say...ALSO, it is VERY true (INHO) what Jerry just posted.
One must remember that about this time of cold weather and snow and some of us can't (or don't want to) play with our "toys" that "cabin fever" malady sets in, and some folks just like to "pull your chain". All in fun, really!!
Marvel Mystery Oil came from the "dark side"...
"I am simply amazed at the number people on this thread who have totally missed the point of my original post."
I am simply amazed by the arrogant tone of your original post, and all subsequent posts.
Can you post a photo of your God badge ?
Robert I don't read the classified because it is hard to believe things that are written there so I missed your request.
I have 2 cans of 1915 air and three from 1919.
I would be happy to sell the 1915 cans for $150,000 each.
You will need an air extractor to get the air out of the cans without mixing it with modern air.
If you don't have one I am willing to let you rent mine for $10,000 per day (7 day minimum)
I normally require a $2,000,000 deposit but since your an honorable MTFCA guy that wants originality I am willing to lower the deposit to $1,000,000.
FYI - I understand that the air was packaged in Detroit thus it might be a bit dirty but it is as close to original Ford air one can get!
If anyone wants Old Fart gas I also have it available for slightly less.
I understood the intention of your original post Tim. I was going to suggest something similar but the right opportunity never arose. Over recent discussions and thread deletions I think you are on the right track. Since this is a searchable forum (Google or the site's search function) anyone searching the forum for info shouldn't be subjected to argumentative commentary. If a product mention comes up that you aren't a fan if, instead of arguing over decimal points or mis information, create your own thread heralding why your solution is better. That way new folks can read through threads and make their own decisions based on facts they read. And just for the record, I read every post to a topic I click on.
Your opinion is just that - your opinion.
It might be your " fact " but is not shared by others.
Trying to force your opinion that YOU perceive as factual is what is drawing criticism here.
THAT is what you do not seem to " get ".
Start a Church Of The Model T and preach to your congregation there - not here .....
I would take Fred's offer. The only other way to get the correct, "original" air would be to go to the Antarctic or Greenlandic ice shelfs (or is it "shelves"??) and bore down to the appropriate ice level (maybe 80-100 metres), remove some ice cores, melt them down and capture the air bubbles that would be released. I'd imagine the equipment and the logistics of getting it there and the massive amounts of ice you'd need to liquefy to recover enough to fill your tyres (my god, you're not running 3.5x 30s are you!!??) makes Fred's generous offer a steal!
Yep, missed the point Hillary Lost..?
I think that Tim is on the right track. There is no such thing for a Model T or Model A as an "Upgrade". And "rare" is relative to the object and the person making the statement. I have seen the word used "rare" for an item that I know where there is a bunch of them. We know that something is original only once. I appreciate a nice original over an over rebuilt auto. I seldom have seem or heard of an "Restored" old auto. Most all are just rebuilt. It is almost impossible to restore an old auto to original condition. I has been done, but an brand NOS old stock Model T Ford would not be a 100 point car.
I think everyone has cabin fever? Today is the shortest day of the year. Hang in there or their for tomorrow will be a few seconds longer!
Honestly, I feel your frustration. The misuse of terms can be annoying,
especially when coming from people who just can't be bothered to learn
all the ins-n-outs of a given subject. But I would submit that the holier-
than-thou approach is by FAR more off-putting and will win you friends
and support exactly nowhere.
As FJ suggested with his church comment, I have a childhood friend that
I am still pretty tight with 50 years on. Not sure where he got this, but he
has a bug up his posterior for Jesus. Now, I am all good with people finding
their way in life with whatever means they identify with to make them good
neighbors, citizens, dog lovers, etc., ... but I tell you, when he wants to tell
me The Facts (and he also uses that term) about his FAITH, all respect goes
out the window. Ironically, it is a direct parallel to someone calling a modified
car "original" !
Hmmm .... who ever said the kettle was black ?
I deeply embrace the notion of freedom of choice. And as part of that
freedom comes the responsibility of reaping the harvest of what one sows
when they make those free choices. The guy who chooses to call his modified
car original will enjoy the spoken or unspoken disdain of those who know
better, just as my friend will be kept at a philosophical distance because I
can clearly see he's incapable of filtering his comments and/or rational thought
when it comes to respecting the views of others, i.e; ... when it comes to some
decisions he makes. I value our friendship, but will deny him access to certain
levels because his arrogant notion that his viewpoint overrules all others will
be pressed into argument if I let him.
If a person wishes to be viewed as an overbearing, arrogant know-it-all, the
path is free and clear to just proclaim everyone else's viewpoint is invalid.
Let's just see how that works out for ya !
There's no way to win. While 'preserved' may appear to be a good term, I can assure you that someone would come along and blow that one out of the water too. I can see it now, "How can you call that "Preserved" when you have those goshawful black Universal T Drivers on it?" There are a lot of people who would tell you that an "Antique" car is one built between the years of X and Y and displays certain "Antique" features not found on other vehicles. And don't even bring up the word "classic", or is it "Classic"? "Restored" and "Rebuilt" have their written in stone definitions to some folks, too. It's really no different than the discussion on whether an automobile collision is an "Accident". It doesn't help that people (Society) are continuously redefining words to suit their own agendas. Before long, the words "Bully" and "Terrorism" will have no meaning at all.
Tim of the Adirondacks South.
I posted his a few years back - It may have some relevance to your comments on auxiliary stuff to the Model T..
""Whether a car is restored or not is up to the discretion of the owner.
But when a car is over restored and articles are written about it, stating the restoration was done "without having the car suffer 'restoration damage' by erasing it's history" is a bit much. Especially if all "the paint is chemically removed and as much of the original coach work wood is saved as possible," as these terms are used to describe a certain high end Bug Atlantic T57SC. Additional this car is described with " (It) can probably claim to be the most original." How can it be the most original when it was taken down to bare metal with every fastener used to hold the car together removed and replace so the car can claim to be a show winner at Pebble Beach.
A few years ago (34 years ago), I drove a Packard 833 (circa 1931) Coupe to a respected Central Pennsylvania Car show. The car at the time was still running on synthetic S-3 tyres (also known as GR-S (Government Rubber-Styrene)). The car was not restored or rebuilt. I was placed in a class of other classic vehicles of the same year. Next to me was a gentleman with a fresh paint and restored 1930 Buick coupe. In time, he came over and started a conversation with me. "Is the car for sale?," and later in the talk if it was, he would have had it given a full rebuild and restoration to original condition. He informed me that it was a shame that such a classic car was in such sad shape. This was before the AACA had a Historic Preservation Class (HPOF).
Ever since that day I had the conversation with the owner of the Buick, and reading about the Atlantic, I viewed every scratch, stain, and puff of smoke on the cars I own and drive as having it's history intact, not erased or having the vehicle to suffer restoration damage. And I am glad that the AACA added the HPOF class.
Seeing an unrestored car, even if it has some help to run a microchip ignition or electric fuel pump - is far more appealing that one over rebuilt built.""
Now please turn to page 88 of your hymnal and stand if possible - "End Of The Road Hymn"
Burger - Are you suggesting that Jesus drove an original Black Model T?
If so how can you be sure that it was black?
It could have been Cardinal red!
PS - It's noon and I can see the sun - maybe!
My original post is factual information and not my opinion.
Model T Fords run and operate perfectly as originally built. To lead others to believe otherwise is harmful to the hobby and helps to spread false information.
Distributors work great on a T but that doesn't automatically mean that the original ignition is flawed because, in fact, it isn't.
My friend has a red phone on his desk ... the God Hotline. Why speculate ?
I will have him make the call and GET THE FACTS !!!
"In addition, any car that has had "one repaint in the 1950s" is NOT an original car."
Tim, this statement (and the seemingly arrogant tone) is what bothers me the most. Where do you draw the line? If a wheel bearing wears out and you replace, does that make the car non-original, or just well-maintained? Similarly, if the tires were ever replaced, is the car not original? Why is paint any different? If the paint wears out, you replace it.
Note, I'm not talking about a fancy paint job, just repairing/replacing the paint that was there.
My grandfather's '26 Fordor got a crunched fender in 1928. He replaced it with one from Western Auto. I think he paid $2.45 for it, (which he recorded in a little notebook I still have). If I crunched that same fender today, I'd replace it too. Which incident makes the car not original?
Tim,I don't want to stir up your message but did you have canned corn for supper? Bud.
I found a piece of corn on the soap in my Grandmother's bathtub
when I was a kid. I am still trying to figure that one out.
Take heart, all this will pass like a fart in the wind!
We have the comedians and then we have those who refuse to accept the facts because they don't want to come to the realization that what they have believed for years is actually incorrect.
It's too bad though because knowledge is power.
Okay, okay, I give up, I was enjoying reading all the post everybody has made. They make for a fun read. I think everyone agrees with the statement, Tim and the rest of you are entitled to his/your opinions.
How about if we all list our Model Ts as "cosmetically original").
ps: Fred I am interested in purchasing some of your hot air (but not your Old Fart gas), could you recommend a local Bank that I may knock-off (I mean secure a low rate interest loan from?
Mark -- In case you missed it -
I have a few cans of Old Fart gas for sale!
Tim, since you have all the answers, please answer the questions -
If a worn out wheel bearing is replaced, is the car still original?
If worn tires are replaced with the same kind of tires that came from the factory, is the car still original?
How about if it is a different tread pattern?
If worn out or scratched paint is replaced with the same kind of paint that came from the factory, is the car still original?
I honestly can't figure out where you are drawing the line. I don't think the "facts" are as clear to the rest of us as they seem to be to you.
BTW, I drive a Speedster that's made up of a mix of parts from many years, old and new, so I clearly have no dog in the originality fight!
What you offer is a Hypothesis based upon personal opinion.
It does not hold up under scrutiny.
From many practicable standpoints that have been posted - it falls short.
But - continue in your own belief.
Nobody mentioned comma usage. "Let's eat Grandma" vs. "Let's eat, Grandma". A comma can be deadly. My day job involves old buildings and the semantics apply to old cars. Three situations: PRESERVATION, RESTORATION, and ADAPTIVE REUSE. There are very few buildings, or cars, that are in original condition and suitable for PRESERVATION. These are the museum pieces and are very rare. Several buildings, and cars, are suitable for RESTORATION. These are mostly complete and original and need missing elements replaced with period correct elements done in period correct fashion. In buildings, if we encounter an original window sill that is too rotted to continue using, we inject it with epoxy rather than replace it. If we lose that original wood, it is gone forever. Only if it is beyond repair is it replaced. The vast majority of old buildings, and old cars, are ADAPTIVE REUSE. This category recognizes that, without modern function, these buildings, or cars, would be destroyed because they are unusable. Your local historic train station, theater, or bank, has modern air conditioning, plumbing, and electrical systems. Else, they would be empty, take the toll of deterioration, and eventually be demolished. A speedster project, for example, is an adaptive reuse of individual parts that are preserved or restored. It is still historically significant even though there may be modern parts or methods mixed in. In adaptive reuse of buildings, we ask ourselves, "Is the modern change reversible?" An antique wooden entry door may not be usable in a modern building but we can install a new door that copies the original and restore the original and save it so someone, in the future, can use it. Restoration and adaptive reuse recognize the extremely important concept that, if we don't maintain condition, the car will eventually be lost. We tend to think of restoration being over when we stand back and admire our work. But, this work needs to last yet another century to have future social value. In that light, if a modern paint job with a modern spray gun keeps the car from rusting away for the next 100 years, then those materials and methods are the ones that give future generations value and are the most historically significant to future generations. All three categories are important: preservation for the few, restoration for the masses, and adaptive reuse for the practical.
"...then we have those who refuse to accept the facts because they don't want to come to the realization that what they have believed for years is actually incorrect."
You forgot the people who don't give a damn. These would be the same folks who like to go out and have fun with old cars and friends and not bloviate about what's right, what's wrong and who can piss a bigger stream.
Good for you! You found the truth. You've got the "power", whatever that does for you. Enjoy it.
Wow. This is like some arcane debate among medieval theologians about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Am glad my little niche of the greater Model T/A hobby does not keep me up at night with such "weighty" questions. I use the same description that Dennis Seth uses: "period correct." It most accurately describes my vehicles - all of which are homemade (albeit 70-90 years ago).
The Model T was, arguably, the most "accessorized" vehicle in history - an entire industry developed around making accessories for it (would defer to Jay or others for an estimate regarding how many companies were churning out accessories for the T). So, the customer leaves his local Ford agency with his new runabout at 0900 hrs on 5 January, 1921 and then installs an accessory motometer an hour later. How "original" is the car now? It didn't roll off the line at Highland Park with that motometer - but I'd submit that it is pretty original one hour after being purchased new from a Ford agency (motometer or not).
"Period correct" seems to be the most accurate description without delving into angels, pins and air in tires. "Period correct" also covers the fender Jerry's grandfather put on his '26 Fordor (as well as the fender Jerry would put on it today if he crunched it).
(Message edited by Conversiont on December 21, 2016)
(Message edited by Conversiont on December 21, 2016)
Your last post is Funny!
You didn't make that corn thing up did you.
Jesus,pun intended,I feared this would spark a firestorm.To get back to the original intent of the thread.
I cringe when I hear the magneto contact reffered to as a sensor.I have not yet given up trying to get a young newbie not to use that term.
Stating the facts so that people can learn and make sensible decisions is not an act of arrogance.
However, I am fully aware that some folks don't like the truth.
Hal & Robert - I guess I'm sorry I brought up my comment about original automotive terminology,...it's just that it seems like it would be nice to preserve the old terms as well as the old cars. I guess I just like the old terms like "ammeter", but I guess you can call it an "electrical system status indicaticating device" if you want, and everybody would still know it's an ammeter I guess. I mean, what the heck,....it's become fashionable to call the auditorium the "performing arts center", and the library the "learning resource center" and the hospital is now a "medical center", etc, etc, etc,......(:^)
So, enough of the forum for me today for now,.... so I guess I'll just go out to my automotive transportation storage and maintenance facility (shop) and adjust the bands on my variable torque selection device (transmission) ..... harold (:^)
If you purchased a car that was 100 percent original, woud YOU want to get in and drive it?
100 year old tires?
100 year old nuts and bolts holding the suspension?
100 year old oil and gas?
100 year old window glass in the windshield?
When I "created" my 42 Ford GPW, there were two clasifications in the military vehicle judging. Factory Class and Motor Pool Class. I created my own third category, the MFJ class. It's my frickin jeep.
Original where I could, reproduction where I wanted and new, safety hardware where my life was on the linde.
Plan on doing the same for my WWI "resorcreation" WWI vehicle. It's my frickin T. Or, the MFT class.
A Diversion..(of sorts)
"Stating the facts so that people can learn and make sensible
decisions is not an act of arrogance.
However, I am fully aware that some folks don't like the truth.
So, you're a comedian too !
Funnier still, I totally agree with Ron from Mass !!!
There are times I really miss the free pass we were given to
appropriately deal with zealots in AFG.
Really ? I am the infidel ? By whose authority ? Oh, YOUR
authority ! Can I see your credentials ? Hold on, you just want
me to buy off that YOU have the singular path to the all-knowing ?
Roger that. Well, it's been nice talking with you, Mister Taliban.
This has gone beyond your points being viable arguments to
you just claiming superior position, which is the very definition
Nothing personal. As a matter of fact, I did not even remember who had said it. I understand where you are coming from, but.....I would hate to chastise some newbie for saying amp gauge when what he really needed to know was how to adjust his current limiting contact (Third brush).
Burger- Stating that a properly built Model T engine does not need fuel additives and etc. is not an act of superiority. It's just simply stating the facts, nothing more.
I think you are confused.
I think if you had stopped right after your 12 volt statement, you wouldn't be getting 90% of the crap you are getting. Doubling down on it doesn't help.
"Burger- Stating that a properly built Model T engine does not need
fuel additives and etc. is not an act of superiority. It's just simply stating
the facts, nothing more.
I think you are confused."
I think I pretty much agreed with all your points, and said so
in an earlier post.
What is being missed here is the air of higher ground that you
are projecting. I really don't give a damn how right a person may
be if they come from a place of having higher value that those
they are projecting to.
This really ain't that tough to understand.
If we do not play nice, the etiquette police will take away all the fun lines...
Burger,I hope you never asked Grandmaw about it!!!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
If you are so sure you know all the facts, please answer the questions I asked earlier. I'm just trying to understand your position.
Fact, words of Jesus
John 3:3 New International Version:
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
So if you are not born again you will burn in hell for an eternity. If you are born again, you are decidedly Christian, therefore no Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Catholics, Buddhists, or other riff raff in heaven, only born again Christians. This gives comfort to many Christians.
If you want the comfort of knowing you can go to Model T heaven, I suggest you follow Tim, he has the facts...
You know, Joe, .... ISIS makes the same claim about Allah
infidels. So, I guess in all these centuries, we're still just a degree
below the boiling point of more crusades, both religious and car-related ?
Ummm, ... Gates of Hell. Yeah ....
No, Bud, .... it was never brought up. Although it has become legend.
The Bible consist of old and new testament. The Book of John was added to the Collection called the New Testament by the Council of Nicea, by a group of East and Western Catholic Clergy. As for being in Model T Heaven or any heaven JB, I would pick this group - Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Catholics, Buddhists, including the Mormons or other riff raff over your Christianity. I think to you may want to thank Pope Damasus I for including John in the new testament.
Well, I guess we can say goodbye to THIS thread.
Everyone draws the line somewhere.
I do not like any changes that are irreversible.
For example, who cares if you put on a water pump? It can be removed and the car taken back to original.
Ditto for fuel additives, special coolants or special motor oils. They can all be used, removed, and whatever is original can replace them, no harm to the vehicle.
But destroying an original piece I object to, for example welding a hinge.
Chris- I can't find where I posted that "I am sure I know all the facts". Perhaps you're confusing me with somebody else's post?
I have made my position crystal clear:
Properly built Model T engines do not require fuel additives, special fluids and water pumps- these are facts (refer to the top of the thread for the complete list).
The ridiculous postings you are seeing here are proof that people don't like having their long held beliefs challenged.
Warren. I am selling old air, not hot air.
If you really want my Hot air just visit my garage and I give it away for free.
Well almost free. I require that visitors bring a large cup of black Dunkin Donuts coffee for me.
Most of what's been posted here is tongue and cheek. You really need to take a deep breath. It's just a hobby man. Enjoy the Season.
I don't know if Tim Rogers is posting from his vast knowledge of the topic or his years of experience? Please tell us of your background and show us your accomplishments in restoration or preservation.
There are some experts here (I am not one) and they could possibly learn from you. Your comments are valued and could add to our historical knowledge.
A person like Tim is a rare resource who only comes around about once a month on the internet. Hell, I only have about 12 model T's right now and have only had about 25 in the last 30 years. Many lost souls have brought their cars to me for repair and now I feel guilty...I either took nominal payment to fix magneto's, rebuilt rear ends, carburetors, front axle assemblies, transmissions, wheel work and tires and sometimes for nothing but their help to show them how to do it.
We really need an expert like Tim Rogers to guide us along because the world is doing it all wrong. I am going to drain my radiators tonight from antifreeze and put in water then drain the modern oil out and put in used oil to protect the bearings. I am going to remove my thrust bearings and put in originals back in.
Safety first...no way, "Safety is number 3 for me".
Sorry, Tim, if I overstated your claim to knowledge of facts. I still would like your answers to the questions I posted. You certainly are stating things as black and white, and I don't think they are nearly so. I really would like a better understanding of where you draw the line.
So you don't have to dig back through the thread:
If a worn out wheel bearing is replaced, is the car still original?
If worn tires are replaced with the same kind of tires that came from the factory, is the car still original?
How about if it is a different tread pattern?
If worn out or scratched paint is replaced with the same kind of paint that came from the factory, is the car still original?
Isn't the Ford Service Manual referred to as "The Bible"?
Go by the Bible and you can't go wrong!
Many years ago I saw a guy eat his own stool on a bet.
I think I am witnessing something similar here now.
I do have 1920 air in my roadster, 1923 air in the tires of my touring, and 1926 air in the tires of my "Doctor's Coupe" ( it's mine, I'm a doctor, end of argument). the oxygen and nitrogen in the air was present in 1920-26, so were the vast majority of the other inert gases. They may not have been in my tires but they were floating around waiting for me to pump into my tires in 2016. The small amount of additional matter, CO2, etc not floating around in the 1920's is inconsequential. In the famous words of the Red Baron to Snoopy "Merry Christmas, My Friend!"
In my opinion, this thread did not help the hobby. Seems like it just stirred the pot! I do not dispute what Tim said, but it comes across like preaching...... Which can rub people the wrong way. Again, my opinion.
Boy what is going on, I just read the entire post top to bottom. If I was a newbie and read this thread I'd buy a different brand of antique auto. I was going to say that other make that starts with a C and ends with a t but I just can't do it.
You are right! Chevrolet is that other make that also goes by the facts that Tim has posted. Excellent point!
You never get to old to learn something. I have a small little known museum that I am always looking for things to add to it. I have a 55 gal. oil barrel in my barn that I emptied in 1962 I put the bung back in the barrel at that time, so I have 55 gal, of 1962 antique air to add to my museum
I do to my cars what I want to - they are mine as long as I own them. My Chevy tow vehicle isn't even close to stock. My T is what I would call a "survivor". I don't want it to be George Washington's axe. The battery rack was falling apart when I bought the car, I purchased a repro from Lang's. It was a spot on reproduction. After a year, I cut out the badly rotted (read-missing) section and welded in a new piece. I then reinstalled the old rack with visible welds. The old box is about 98% original. I have the perfect repro "in stock". I still consider my unrestored T with one repaint and a few replacement parts as original. If you disagree, I'm OK with that, but I still consider it to be an unrestored survivor.
Oh boy, ... you are messing with the T God's wrath !
Let me guess, ethylene glycol anti-freeze too ?
John- I fully agree with you.
However, you have posted on the wrong thread. Burger has started a new thread that contains all the facts, is well written and is definitely a positive contribution to the hobby. He has also included such relevant topics like beheadings and infidels.
I have learned my lesson- Burger knows what's best for everybody.
Forgetting the additives & oils listed in the original post, as we all seem to have, where or what would have any chance at all of being "original" in the purest sense? # 10 Million? # 15 million? are they in museums? Where they ever used to the point that work was necessary? How about the Rip Van Winkle Ford?
I love my water pump.......
To those that are complaining about this thread -- I say PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTft or something like that.
One of the great things about most of the people here is their sense of humor and wit.
If we all just talked about the size of the third nut from the front on the right side of a 1915 motor we would be a bunch of dull guys.
There is a well know "proverb" (not really from Proverbs) "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!" that was supposedly written in 1659 and has shown up many many times over the years that applies to the fun of owning a Model T.
If you like the other thread is a bit more serious - although I am surprised that it still exists because it borders on religion! :-)
Dear Mr. Rogers,
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood ....
Get off your high horse and actually do some good for the hobby.
Your know-it-all arrogance is nauseating.
Yes, of course you're right.
I think Tim was only trying to clear some things up, like this ad:
For Sale 1924 Model T Roadster $16,500 - Original restored - always garaged. Features include: water pump, speedometer, rod dippers, luggage racks, tool box, spare tire and more. Family owned since 1950’s and to be sold with life collection of parts.
How can it be Original & Restored?
Thank you Warren- that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Easy, if you use my definition, which is only to distinguish it from one that has been street rodded. I really don't think I'm in the minority on this. I think a lot of people put old cars into two categories. Original and hot rodded. When they say original, they don't mean no one ever changed the damned oil. They mean it doesn't have the top chopped and a 350 Chevy under the hood.
Well said Hal. However, the NOS tire air and period oil comments are funny.
I'm not sure you would really agree on my definition, Tim. While neither of out T's have been restored, we do have a restored Model A. It has its share of reproduction parts, especially stuff like spring shackles and brake parts, pistons, etc, but also the radiator and shell. Paint is acrylic lacquer on the body and acrylic enamel on the fenders. Upholstery is LeBarron Bonney. I consider it restored and original. Around here, a lot of people use the word restored to mean it has been fixed up and painted, whether it is a street rod or restored to original condition.
Hal- There are truly original vintage automobiles out there- and I mean untouched except for maintenance. But when it comes to vehicles that are 100+ years old true originality becomes scarce because the materials and methods of manufacture are long gone.
It's been said on the forum before and I think the term "preserved" is more appropriate for cars that have or have not been "restored" but not made into a "hotrod".
I will offer that the definition is likely different from place to place and as long as no one is trying to bamboozle someone, theyou should not be ridiculed.
That should read "They", not "Theyou". Dang phone!
CORN, that's going to be burned into my psyche till the end of time.
Hal- And that's the real issue. Definitions shouldn't be up for interpretation. It's always been my understanding that an original vehicle is one that has not been restored or modified.
I appreciate your sensible and constructive comments. It's a refreshing departure from some of the silly nonsense previously posted on this thread.
It's only an issue, because you are making it one! This is a world where people have different opinions and interpretations. You have yours and are welcome to it. Other people have theirs and are welcome to it. Welcome to the free world! I happen to agree with your view but, I am in no way going to push that on other people. No one is going to changed everyone's thinking, no matter how hard they try!
I just take a grain of salt with any ad I read. It's buyer beware......
Doug,Burn that corn in the stove as we have for 10 years! Bud.
Tim, I'll agree with your 9:20 post. I typically use the word "survivor" for an unrestored car. A restoration - by my definition - means that the car was completely disassembled and rebuilt using original or reproduction parts. The friend who got me into the hobby has a beautifully-restored '24 touring. It has a 1919 motor. Apparently the '24 engine was beyond economical repair. The only significant visible difference would be the engine number. I'm sure that an expert could find something else to take points off, but as we normally drive with the hood closed, and my trip kit does not include a magnifying glass, who cares? Were I to purchase the car, this would make no difference to me.
After reading through this post, it is apparent that the OP is trying to prod folks into an argument and create division. How very sad. I guess there isn't much to do south of the Adirondacks this time year. Merry Christmas to all.
FOR SALE- RARE 1962 1/2 Desoto re-release factory retractable roof prototype. 1 of 1. Owned by famous movie star but can't remember his name right now, but I heard he banged Marilyn Monroe. There was a cigarette butt with red lipstick in the back so that just about proves it. Just pulled out of a dry western barn after 73 years in storage. May need patch panels and interior work. Back seat not pictured but in kinda good shape (except Cheetos stains) cause we use it for a sofa in the den. My boy just dropped out of Wyotech and can do the body and paint for you for extra money or trade for PS4 games or Chevelle parts. He's wicked good at skulls and ghost flames. Car ran when parked, and before the motor was pulled. Might be able to get the original motor from my uncle for additional money or ammo. Assume it will need brake work and new battery. Rare Hemi flathead engine. Factory hood delete option. Glass has some delamination. Missing some trim. Do not advise driving home so bring a trailer and 4 wheel drive truck with at least 8 inches of clearance and a winch. Hurry before the spring thaw refills the pond. No title, but know a guy who thinks he remembers the guy who's aunt owned it who assures me they might be able to find it. Awesome patina! Repeat AWESOME PATINA! Odometer missing but can sign a napkin claiming it has 14 original miles. Have all factory documentation but can't find it right now. I'll mail it to you. Glove box door is signed by Virgil Exner, but it wore off and you can't read it anymore. Used to have a perfect hubcap in the trunk but one of my neighbors punk kids stole it. Located 241 miles from the nearest paved road. Go through town, turn left at the pig farm, turn right at the Whirlpool washer next to the old cemetery. Left again at the Sarah Palin/Ted Nugent election sign. Up the hill, 4th trailer on the right (the one with the tires on the roof). Go really slow over the old bridge. Please call 406-996-9074, let the phone ring twice, hang up, wait 30 seconds, and call back so I know you're not my old lady (there's a restraining order). Beware of dogs. I work nights at Kwik Way so call only between 3 and 3:30 PM except for Saturday (Civil War reinactments) or the Lord's day which is out altogether. Cash only in small unmarked bills. No scammers. DON'T PASS UP THIS RARE OPPORTUNITY! Happy to answer all questions as vaguely as possible. Used to have 100% feedback before a bunch of guys conspired against me and ruined my rating. Wasn't my fault. Bank messed up. Won't last long. Had a bunch of calls this morning and they're probably headed here now. Think one was Chrysler Historical Society but they used a fake name. The other was maybe those restoration experts from Fast & Loud. Those guys are awesome, right? How cool would it be to party with those dudes! Anyway, my first ex-brother-in-law told me one that kind of looked just like it but was a Buick or something sold for $14 million at Barrett-Jackson, so I think my price is a steal! $4000 or trade for guns. If it doesn't sell soon I'm gonna restore it myself when I get my next disability check. My time is precious because the new seasons of Duck Dynasty and Swamp People just started. Don't waste my time with lowball offers, I know what I have.
Sweet Whistling Jebus, Burger. That's damn funny!!
I am stealing it!
Another well thought of and positive contribution to the hobby- thanks Burger.
John- not trying to create division among the ranks. As I stated before I believe we should educate folks with the facts so they can make sensible and informed decisions concerning their vehicles. Perhaps more people would join the hobby if they were aware that their potential new Model T doesn't need a mysterious and special concoction of additives and fluids and that 6 volt batteries are on the shelf in the store with the 12 volt ones.
...plenty to do South of the Adirondacks- put 50 miles on my sled, had breakfast and then did some last minute shopping.
(Message edited by Antique_iron on December 24, 2016)
And my kid says that I need more to do! Ha,ha,..... no more rum balls for you today Burger! (:o) (;^)
Whew! ....but happy Christmas Eve anyway,.... talk about a "lesson" in creative writing,.....harold
Small unmarked bills ?? In which countries currency? I have a bagfull of rupee's.
FYI, I'm stealing this and posting it on my local Craigslist.
Merry Christmas and thanks for the laugh.
Burger. You should re-think your price! It has original carb and plugs unless they have been replaced with the same kind installed at the factory. I wouldnt ask any less than $5000 Dinar! If there wasnt so much interest already I would write a check and send it to you but you couldnt cash it till I get the money from selling my totally restored Simca and my Yugo that has 5,000,000 mile on it.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVEYONE!!!
Okay guys, it is the Christmas season. Be KIND ! It still could be a long winter for us. Can’t upset people so early in the winter.
But my personal grief is to see a T selling on eBay that has had its ignition system “upgraded” to a distributor.
Maybe what you do with the cars is more important than all this. Our club had the opportunity to do a presentation at a grade school last week on the model T, the industrial revolution, assembly lines and the effect the model T had on our way of life. We also take our cars to assisted living homes, participate in parades, car shows, give rides anything we can to promote interest in the cars.
There is a huge group of people that consider us a bunch of environmental assassins and wish to put an end to our hobby. Lets spend more time on public relations & less on semantics. Merry Christmas.
Burger wins the fur-lined bathtub. (A Model T era saying.)
Burger - do you need help selling your car? I can help for a cut! ;)
Bravo Burger, that was funny! I hope my spelling is OK, I wouldn't want to offend anyone.
Methinks that more people need a genuine problem in life to
kick them straight between the eyes, so they can know what a
problem is and by extension, what is not.
For me, this was a problem:
The white pecks on the glass are from incoming AK rounds
that followed the IED hit. This is what they looked like from
inside the vehicle:
Our top gunners uncorked a whole load of whoopass on the
enemy and after mop up ops and a tow back to camp, the boys
back in Motor T had the old dog back in the fight a couple weeks
After repeated car bomb attempts to breach one camp's perimeter,
it was decided to dig anti-vehicle trenches outside the wall. Our
adversarial threat did not want to see this mission completed and
began a campaign to make my guys dead. I saw this as a problem
as well, and this was how that problem got fixed:
Now, I can see how a person might confuse an easily changed out
distributor as a problem on the magnitude of being killed, just as I
can see how someone's inaccurate use of the word "original" might
rank on par with roadside bombs and ambushes.
Oh, you know what ? No, I can't. This is where my PTSD kicks in
and I am filled with the urge to show the whiney-ass-b!tch what a
REAL problem looks like and how loudly complaining about anything
less just makes one a groveling worm.
But I digress ...
Yes, yes of course,whatever you say...
Hope you all had a Merry Christmas. Happy New Year everyone!