What's Your Definition?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: What's Your Definition?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:09 am:

Trying to determine where I fit in:

When relating to vintage automobiles what comes to mind when you see/hear "in original condition "?

Looking for serious responses, there's another thread for posting comments from out in left field...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:23 am:

Parked in 1915-1938, in an enclosed garage or barn. Not painted or upgraded since. New tires okay. End of original is anything past this to me.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:31 am:

Unless I know the person making the statement, in which case I will likely know what they mean, when I hear someone mention words that include "original" but the context is ambiguous, and if it matters to me, I ask for clarification. Sometimes they mean original as in relatively unmolested and certainly unrestored. Further, this can mean anything from well preserved automobile to an assembled pile of parts. Other times they mean restored, somewhat or completely, but done so authentically or accurately so that the car looks and performs more or less like it did when it was new.

From my experience, the term "original" has too many different meanings for different people. With this in mind when I am describing something I try to add enough words in addition to original so as to be very clear as to what I am talking about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:44 am:

To me Original condition means that it has been maintained over the years, it has some period up grades and can be driven as is or restored. Our 1947 Chrysler I consider mostly original It has had the rear fenders painted and a new top and varnish the wood. every thing else is as it came from Chrysler. Our T is restored to original condition, we have undone a lot of the up grades it has gotten over the years and tried to go back to the way it was,it is not 100 percent but very close. In the T's case restored to original means back to what it was in 1912 the color is wrong but Dad liked the Green most everything else correct 12 Cheers Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:45 am:

People misuse the term "in original condition" all the time. In my opinion there is no absolute definition, it a somewhat subjective term.

Carried to the extreme it could mean the car is 100% original factory installed parts. Typically, I believe many folks are OK with a car being described as original when in reality the rings, valves, Babbitt, bands, spring bushings, etc. have been replaced.

We've all seen cars advertised for sale as "original" when it's an early brass era car with a starter, alternator, electric lights, etc. Also, we've seen black era cars painted red and advertised as "original".

In reality it's pretty much a caveat emptor situation. Unless you know the person using the term "in original condition" and what that persons definition is, it could mean almost anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:49 am:

I feel pretty much the same way as Colin Mavins. My T has never been restored, but it has been painted and a few seriously deteriorated parts have been replaced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:49 am:

Untouched in any way EXCEPT the replacement of tyres or vital rubber seals that will deteriorate beyond their usefulness over time.
NO repaints, no replaced interiors, no small block Chevrolet engines.........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:57 am:

Time to let this die.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 11:10 am:

To be more authentic, I would use the terms:
Original, un-restored.
Restored to original specifications.
Period correct modifications and accessories.
Modified.
I would also expect the Original, un-restored to have very old oxidized or rusty finish, plate glass, and old cracked or worn upholstery. I wouldn't expect the original tires unless the car had been stored since very close to it's manufacture.
Modified would include anything from disk brakes to complete drivechain. Almost anything goes with modified.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 11:11 am:

Like this one gary?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 11:37 am:

Gee Dallas that's a nice looking car!! I just thought of it but you should run the fire truck this summer also?? From time to time people pump those fire engines at the OCF! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 11:47 am:

See, this has all happened a time or two before . . .

The Classic Car Club of America was formed in the '50s as a "niche" organization, realizing that certain pre-war cars that were too new for HCCA nevertheless shared a lot of common characteristics, and were certainly of interest and worth preserving. They coined the term "classic car" and wrote a specific definition, including a roster of makes and models that fit their definitions, none others need apply. To be fair, there was (is, still, I think) a mechanism in their organization to apply for "classic status" being reviewed by the powers in their organization.

They even went so far as to copyright the term "Classic Car". This has resulted in a lot of ridicule, abuse, and a lot or rancorous accusations of the type that has clogged that thread on "Facts", and more, their "legislation" has never stopped the guy on the corner from referring to his uncle's Yugo as a "classic car".

Perhaps there would be some utility in the MTFCA adopting standard definitions for the terms "original condition", "restored", "maintained" and/or "survivor", but it would take a consensus among the membership first off, and acceptance of the fact that confusion would still result, and no one should expect the public outside this small community to adhere to them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 12:49 pm:

The members in the club make up a very small part of the overall population of Model T and other old cars owners and would not make a hill of difference convincing the larger population to change or even the current membership, that being said; I would venture to say that most cars bought are from outside the club.
I think in a large % of cases what some are saying is "restored to condition it left the factory" or their interpretation and have shorten the phrase to original condition or a close as they can do it using what paints etc we have today. All descriptions are subject to seller and buyer own interpretations.
It's the use of "MINT condition" that frosts me. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 12:53 pm:

Subjective terminology.

Original, as in never touched ? That would be one exceptionally
rare situation and as defined, a definition that could apply to almost
zero cars.

Original, as in maintained to an original, period look/condition (as
opposed to hotrodded, chopped, channeled, dropped on a different
frame with SBC drivetrain - can you say "T-bucket" ?)

This last definition is used by 99.9999% of car people, because they
have never seen a never-molested car that fits the former definition.
But even that gets misused !!! I cannot count the times some silly
person will describe the "restoration" of a hotrod with a serious face.
But that is just people, by way of averages. Whaddyagonnadoo ?

Want to start a war of semantics ? Go ahead. I beat my head on
the brick walls of life enough without going after the absurd and
unattainable.

Get this, ... a local legislator wants to ban "assault weapons", as
he argues it will stop such assaults. When it was pointed out that
our state already carries a large number of laws banning assault/s,
and such bans have done little to stop such occurrences, he just
stood their blinking, like a deer in the headlights.

On average, people are not real bright, emotionally driven, and
unable to see big picture thinking, or bring themselves to see the
other side's point of argument. Am I, or anyone else going to change
the collective human paradigm of observation and thought to make
them see the error of their ways in calling things by inaccurate names ?

My sister-in-law, at nearly 50 years old, still calls taking something
out of the freezer "un-thawing" ! Hmmmm ..... this is a bright, professional
woman !

Frankly, I know what they mean, and find some pretty good laughs
in their "stuff". Besides, I have bigger wars to fight, and my head is
already a little sore ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 01:02 pm:

Unfortunately, Bloomington Gold, a Corvette show venue has trademarked the term "Survivor" so it can only be used when talking about over-priced fiberglass spurtcars, so be careful not to carelessly toss around that term!
Rich is right, CCCA members spend an extraordinary amount of their time pissin' to and fro about what a "Classic" should be and how best to keep all that lesser non-coach built automotive riff-raff out. They barely have enough time left over to worry about what kind of return their trailer ensconced investments will bring!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 01:34 pm:

I have always felt original refers to configuration. You may then have either an original unrestored or original restored car. I'll take either one as I like them both.

As to your original post in the other thread:
No fuel additive needed - unless one adds stabile to fight the effects of the ethanol added. But I agree, no lead substitutes are required.
No special anti-freeze - water will work when the temps allow for safe storage. It has however been proven the anti-corrosion package in off the shelf anti-freeze is beneficial to long term preservation.
No special oil needed.- Off the shelf oil is fine. Most prefer detergent oil as it keeps the innards clean and offers some benefit at fighting the effects of acid from combustion by product over that which is found in non-detergent. I agree the hype about motorcycle oil with ZDDP is just that. My dirt bike call for just plain old 10-30. Folks that pony up the extra $ on motorcycle oil for their T based on the age old clutch argument are doing so based on opinion rather than factual evidence of benefit.
12 volt. Not really an upgrade but if done correctly (starter rewired) there's not really a downside. Some folks like the commonality of 12 volt amongst all there cars, tractors, etc. they can then add a receptacle to operate accessories like phone charger etc.
There are "upgrades" from the way the car originally came configured. Many feel the Ruxtell and accessory brakes are such upgrades. Ford himself authorized the two speed rear to be sold by dealers so he likely agreed.
There are many parts that the replacements could be considered as "upgrades" for safety and durability. I'm thinking of axle thrust washers, modern pinion bearing, regulator in place of cut out. There is also the fuse on the third brush to protect the armature.
None of this takes away from an "original" car in most circles of the hobby. Not meant to be argumentative, just sharing how many I know view things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 02:02 pm:

You'll find the terms original condition, barn find, good original and etc. used on a lot of web sites that have old cars for sale.

What it means to one guy may not exactly what you think it should be. To make a long story short if I was going to buy an old car I would want to see it in person before I would buy it. If there are pics of the car that definitely helps but again pictures are one thing but a close up in person look is another.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 02:20 pm:

The truth is an original car that was say stored from day one would still need work to get it going today. Any rubber products would be perished/need replacing among other things. So unless you're a totally whacked out purist parts would need replacing to drive it. Ergo, to the total purist, it's not orig. any more and I have to say I'd agree. Of course the only car that ever came close to that was the Rip Van Winkle Ford and I believe that's in driving condition so parts have been replaced. Not original but totally necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 06:04 pm:

I would seriously doubt that the term "survivor" applying to one brand of car would survive a court challenge. I say that my T is a survivor. If the Corvette people don't like it, too bad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 07:46 pm:

Tim, I think we all fit in different places with old cars. There are no "original" model T's left by the strictest interpretation. I agree with you that the T as designed is reliable transportation even today. If you go on enough tours you will see many breakdowns that are not related to stock parts but modifications. I believe that there are some things that make a T more viable in modern traffic, such as performance upgrades and better brakes. I have put stop lights and turn signals on all my vintage cars, as well as seat belts to comply with the law when my daughter was small. This year I will be teaching her to drive a model T. My point is, there is room for all perspectives in our collector car hobby without having to set standards for what is acceptable or not. My collection runs a wide spectrum. I have had bone stock model T's and nothing is more satisfying than to walk out into the shop on a cold night such as tonight and grab the crank and light her up on magneto with a tug on the choke rod. Tonight I worked on putting Sure Stop disc brakes on my dad's 26 roadster pickup. A radical departure from stock, to be sure, but understand this: my dad first saw this car in 1954 and bought it in 1959, has restored it twice since then. By God's grace, he is still with us and wants good brakes without supreme effort on the pedal. I should add that this car has a numbers matching block stuffed with a Scat stroker crank, a Volvo/Laycock overdrive and Ruckstell. Have I offended anyone yet? If not, I will tell you about the Wild Cherry II. It is a model T based unlimited class hill climb racer that is turning the model A race world on its head with a Gemsa head and C4 automatic transmission. Over 150 HP on tap. This thing will pull the front wheels off the ground on the launch. So you see, there is room for everyone to share their love for the model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 08:28 pm:

I am sure we are only starting to see the many ways there are to enjoy a model T. Making them shiny, or fast or like something from the past are decisions folks will make by what they see others doing with them. Everyone forms their own ideas and that is what makes life interesting. I certainly appreciate the "Purist" view but how will that sell to future generations. I am afraid my cars have more appeal to youngsters that the old fogie that drives them.
Hopefully the rich wealth of knowledge pooled here will help inspire some along the way.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 08:50 pm:

I think that the big difference with the younger generation today, than with us older T owners and drivers is that we older people remember either when someone in our family, or a friend or neighbor had a Model T. Or at least we saw them on the street every day. Our family didn't have one, but I used to see them go by, several per day, and I saw them parked in the business district. We had a vegetable and fruit vendor who drove down our street who had a Model T pickup. So I got to know them. I also heard stories from my dad, grandparents, and uncles about adventures they took in Model T's. It was also the latter half of the great depression and WW II so many were kept running for longer periods because of either economic or shortages.

The children growing up today have only heard of them from history or storied told by some old timers in their family. They are very interested in modern communication devices. Some don't even hold a conversation except by text or facebook.

The best thing we can do to pass on the love of these old cars is to involve our children, grandchildren and acquaintences in our activities. We can wherever possible show our cars at schools. Our club has participated in showing the cars to elementary schools, high schools and middle schools. One school where we showed our cars we even let the kids sit in the cars and we took them for short rides around the school area. The shop classes learned about the mechanical maintenance and the history classes studied the industrial revolution, the English classes wrote short papers on them and the art classes drew pictures of them. So the whole school was involved in learning about the Model T.

At present I am helping a family work on their T. That particular car was inherited from the father-in-law who rebuilt it in the 1950's. The grandpa now owns the car and the son and grandson are involved with the work I am doing. He is 17 and can drive the T. He also works right alongside me in doing the work. Today he helped me hold the manifolds in place for bolting back onto the engine. He also participated in adjusting the shims in the rod bearings and in shimming the magneto ring and re-charging magnets.
He also went down to Ace Hardware and bought some bolts and nuts and drilled the holes for cotter pins or safety wire. We used them for connecting the U joint. His great-grandfather had used lock washers!


I'm sure that when he is my age and I am no longer here to teach him, he will still be able to maintain that car.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 09:11 pm:

Here is another view: I have a 1925 Ford Pickup. It was assembled my me out of 100% original genuine Ford parts. To me the car certainly isn't original, because I created this car over a period of seven years in my garage. But it is certainly 100% authentic. I don't know how this relates to this discussion, but I thought I'd try it. I would include some photos, but I'm not on my home computer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Saturday, December 24, 2016 - 10:22 pm:

Great input guys! (except for the one post that makes no sense at all)

I guess the consensus is that even though "original" is in the dictionary it means many different things to different people.

An adjective followed by a full description of the vehicle is the way to go.


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