Rust Converter vs. Sand Blasting - Thoughts?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Rust Converter vs. Sand Blasting - Thoughts?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 09:58 am:

I have a 1923 Touring. The frame is painted and has a few rusty spots, but the rust is not extreme. Instead, the frame rust is surface type rust and is not compromising the integrity of the frame. The body/cab sheet metal has a bit more rust on both the interior and exterior. Some of the body near the lower sections has some pin holes in the sheet metal, but no gaping holes.

I've been told that the only way to rid the vehicle of rust is to sandblast it, but that is a big cost since I do not have the equipment.

Last night, I discovered Rust Converter products that you can spray or brush onto the metal. The rust converter changes the rusty metal to magnetite and primes the surfaces with a latex paintable metal primer at the same time.

I'm interested in giving this a try, but wondered if anyone else had good or bad experiences with similar Rust Converter products. It seems like this option may be a more practical solution for many folks who do not have easy access to sand blasting equipment.

Thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 10:06 am:

Phosphoric acid works well for that task, knock off any heavy rust or scale with a wire brush apply the Phosphoric acid allow to sit overnight then wipe off with a damp cloth dry prime and paint. Never had a problem after this treatment


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 10:17 am:

Fooducate
Jun 30 2009
11 Quick Facts about Phosphoric Acid (Yes, that Chemical in Coca Cola)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Sherman Tacoma WA on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 10:20 am:

On inside surface of rusty sheet metal (pinholes etc.)use POR15 and fiberglass cloth per the POR15 instructions. Works great
Paul in Tacoma


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 10:55 am:

Wire wheel and a high speed air motor works great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 11:14 am:

I removed surface rust with a mixture lemon juice and vinegar. I mixed the liquid with flour as a binder and made in to a paste and painted it on the rust with a brush, let sit for a few hours and hose it off while scouring with steel wool or sand paper. It may take several applications. It works best on a cool damp day, as the hot sun will harden the flour mixture. I had a trunk lid that was almost solid rust and in two or three days it was bare clean metal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 11:25 am:

sampletrunk lid


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 11:33 am:

Lots of great ideas here. Sometimes sandblasting can be the best option. Not far from me is a business that offers do it yourself sandblasting. They provide the place, the equipment and consumables for a flat $120.00 per hour of working time. With a bit of organized preparation and possibly a helper you can accomplish a lot in a hour!! Perhaps this option is available near you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 01:24 pm:

The rust converter works well for me, use it a good bit just remove all the loose stuff you can and top coat with paint if you choose. I think Por-15 makes a product like this but I have always used the spray in several different brands. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 04:53 pm:

Always a spoil-sport . . . you have to remember that rust is like cancer. It's best to remove it entirely if possible, and mechanical means is usually best. A wire brush is handy and economical, where sand-blasting is expensive and a huge hassle any road.

One thing about sand-blasting, depending on the equipment, the medium and the operator, it can be a blessing or a curse. I've seen body panels ruined by sand-blasting because the abrasive was too coarse, the pressure was too high, and the effect was like a beating with a gazillion little hammers that warped panels. In my experience, the finer the "sand", the better the results, and blasting with other "stuff" like nut shells, etc., is often a good thing.

I know nothing of "rust converters". You'd have to be sure that the chemistry was true, and that the application really is a fix for any amount of corrosion. I have used POR successfully, often in industrial type situations. Their claim is that being urethane paint chemistry any moisture is drawn from the rusty surface and chemically bound in the coating. I do know it is pretty good at keeping rust from bleeding through other coatings, but the rust is still there. Unless POR has
changed their formulation, it is not a good finish coating, being very susceptible to UV decay.

Be very careful with acids, unless washed clean and neutralized, they can cause their own havoc on metal parts. David's home-brew "naval jelly" sounds as if it could be very useful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 05:04 pm:

Will anyone re-visit the 'molasses and water' possibility, or has that been found not to work? (I've not been able to try it.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach, CA on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 08:09 pm:

A chemical will remove the surface rust but not down to the base metal unless you soak it for a long time with agitation. The light blue phosphoric acid works for surface rust and does make a prime coat but the devil is still there down deep and will bubble later on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 08:26 pm:

Marve, molasses on panel work is problematical on two fronts.
First, you need a huge bath to do something like a front fender, consequently plenty of molasses.
Second, much panelwork still has areas of paint and molasses will not touch paint.
It is ideal for use on smaller steel parts as long as they are not painted or greasy. Cast iron needs to be watched, and the parts removed as soon as they are clean. Otherwise they can be severely pitted.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 08:31 pm:

If you have the tank and space, molasses strips off rust on steel very well.









Visited this fella for a demo, was impressed on how the rust is just cleaned off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

3M makes a stripper wheel that works well, as does a disc sander. If its really pitted, angry and ugly you can start of with 36 grit, and then you use finer grits to smooth up the surface. You need to remove as much rust as practically possible. You can just spray it with rust converter and paint over it. You might use a rust converter after you have removed as much as practical mechanically.

In particular, if you use a wire wheel wear safety goggles as wire wheels are notorious for throwing off pieces of wire and you don't any ending up in your eye.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 11:14 pm:

been sand blasting body tin 30 years . if you want it clean and not worry about bad reactions form chemicals when you paint.its the way to go, use 70 lbs and stay back about 10" and hit it on an angle. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 03:34 pm:

Oops, meant to say you CAN'T not you can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 06:35 pm:

Dan is correct about the molasses. I have derusted almost an entire Touring including all of the body panels, front and rear axles, rims, fellows, hubs, etc. I made my own tank out of plywood, 2x4's, and liquid rubber. I tested cast iron but am not convinced yet that it causes any damage. I suspect the pitting that people mention is probably just the deeper rust being removed. I have had some cast iron in the tank for 3-4 weeks with no problem. The biggest problem with molasses is the fact that you have to put it in a tank and it can take several weeks to work. It's not fast but it is economical compared to other options as I have only spent about $100 on molasses.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 07:01 pm:

@Thomas where do you buy a sufficient quantity of molasses for $100? How much molasses does $100 buy?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

Ignacio - I buy it from a feed store for around $20 for a 5 gallon bucket. It is not for human consumption but is just "feed grade". Mix 1 part molasses to around 8 parts water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 10:40 pm:

My experience with molasses is as follows. To begin with, I set up test jars 10% increments of molasses to water. Using pieces of rusted reinforcement rod, I found that 40% molasses mix worked best. Less was slower, more just used more molasses. It worked better in warmer weather, so gentle heat may speed things up some.

I found that cast iron, if left for any length of time, developed deep pits. It was suggested that this was as a result of the molasses reacting with the carbon in the alloy. It worked really well on steel forgings and cast steel items. I lost a cast piece off one of my dipping wires. When draining the tank to replenish it with new mix, it turned up in unuseable condition.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 11:12 pm:

I have used "Evapo-Rust", which is a refined molasses. I found it worked great, very easy for small parts. Large parts I wetted paper or cloth towels placed on the components, sometimes I wrapped it with plastic to keep it from evaporating. That method worked ok, but not nearly as good as being submerged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Wednesday, December 28, 2016 - 11:27 pm:

The molasses worked for me when I restored a 52 ford truck. I had the frame blasted and powder coated but some of the body panels were bad and the came out great in a molasses vat. The electrolysis vats work well too and near zero cost to build and operate. Some times it's easier to set up a vat and clean the parts like that if you live in a rural area and have to travel to a reputable blaster. I do some of my stuff in the vat because I work 70+ hours and most times it's weeks before I need a part or have time to work on anything again. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 07:19 am:

I "derusted" my entire rolling chassis with a corded electric drill and a handful of different shaped wire wheel attachments. Cheap and very effective.

The body work is a different story. I would not sandblast those panels unless you have a lot of experience knowing the dos and donts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 07:21 am:

What do you do with the old molasses once it has run its course?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 07:30 am:

I vote for abrasive blasting for most rusted stuff (with the exception of thin metals). I use Black Diamond abrasive in the sand blaster rig. I can sift it and re-use it about four more times before it is too fine to be effective. I find I can deal with rust faster using this type of set up than using other methods I have used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jerry knouse on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 11:47 am:

A body shop owner once told me " There is no such thing as surface rust - it is rust period " I believe Rich B is correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 02:27 pm:

-Dan-
Not being a chemist by any means, but with molasses being 'organic', disposal shouldn't cause any logical ecological concerns? Any EPA regs? Somebody out there must have some knowledge...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 02:39 pm:

I'd like to know more about rust converters. Doesn't the coating run to a semigloss black color? Wouldn't this be good for under rusty fenders or the the frame on a driver car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dunlap - Orlando, Florida on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

I learned about rust converters on www.eastwood.com after a friend told me about options for dealing with rust that didn't involve blasting. Another rust converter I located is Corroseal. I'm not endorsing either one. Rustoleum also has a product that you spray on from an aerosol can and it converts rust and primes it.

I bought some Corroseal through Home Depot's website and should have it in a few days. Both websites have some details about how they work and how they prime the surface for painting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 03:35 pm:

Molasses is benign in the environment. You are disposing of a plant based product mixed with water.
I have room enough out the back to pour it on the ground and let it soak away. My wife has a super sensitive sense of smell for anything chemical, [paint, thinners, petrol, solvents etc.] The smell of molasses does not even come up on her radar.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnkerebabbittingservice.com on Thursday, December 29, 2016 - 08:26 pm:

OK fellas. I have been media blasting and painting since I was 12 years old. I am now 49. I mean blasting daily as part of my business. At one time had 14 employees restoring cars, heavy equipment, and blasting, both portable and at our shop full time. One blaster ran 40 hours a week, and the other a minimum of 20 hours a week. I am also CAS 2 certified which means "Coating-Application-Specialist-Level 2-Certification" required for the fracking industry that I put together in Ohio for Blasting and lining 4.000 gal tanks to hold salt water. CAS2 Is the highest certification for cas that certifies me to train others for preparation for substrates, coatings,and applications. It also involves preparation for any surface, including materials and applications. From commercial, industrial, and Marine applications of any and all substrates. I am writing a response as shortly as I can possibly write with info and understanding. I will add the info shortly. P.S. Charley Shaver, and Kevin Whelihan are on the right track.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim on Friday, December 30, 2016 - 01:04 pm:

I did an experiment with electricity to remove rust a few years back. Here are the photos: http://tfoye.com/MTE/itselectric.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, December 30, 2016 - 09:59 pm:

I use electrolysis on alot of stuff.

I will be honest, I think if it is bad enough,media blast it or totally remove the rust somehow.

I have a spare chassis that I wanted to clean up and store.I used up 2 wire cup brushes on a side grinder to clean it up. I then wiped it down with lacquer thinner and brushed on Por 15. It is now hanging in the shed. There is bubbles all in the finish and if you scrape 1 off it is rust under it.
On minor projects I have used the spray type converter. Best I can tell long term,it may be a gimmick. I used it on a spot on the fender of my 66 f100 after I welded a piece in it and there is bubbles around that area so I am thinking rust has come back


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