I thought as long as I was doing the 1926-27 coil box, might as well do this late 1925 coil box too...I saw one on a car out at Bakersfield this last summer and then Donnie Brown mentioned he found one on a car as well, which also was a late 1925 (or early 26 and these productions usually run). But for some reason was changed for the 26 release date with the longer support arm...otherwise they are exactly the same as far as I can tell.
I believe this is a late 1925 coil box assembly.
This is the standard "Improved Car" coil box that we all recognize.
My problem is, I can't find any reference for the rivets that hold the vertical wood to the box nor for the power bolt through the bottom contact strip, that comes out the bottom of the box...if anybody know the part number for either of these, please let me know...I know you can't get the boxes new, but you can get the covers and the cover gasket. So I either need part numbers and or size specifications (probably people use pop rivets now, but they didn't then).
As always, if you see something I omitted and you think it should be in the drawing or if you see something that isn't correct, please let me know and I'll make the changes as quickly as possible, thanks.
Martin, just a small refinement. Could you put an extra dog leg in the rivet line so that it does not appear to be o the same line as the lower coilbox terminals for cyls 2 and 4?
Allan from down under.
Allan, the problem with that is it usually makes it harder not easier to follow the more bends you put into a "dog leg"...that's why I try not to use them anymore than I absolutely have to. What I can do is take the existing leg and extend it out further, like beyond the terminal nuts to show it is not on the same centerline as they are because their centerline over shadows the terminal nuts...will that work for you? Whilst we're on this subject, do you happen to know what those rivets are, I mean size wise? Or if indeed they even have a part number that I can use?
1925 (late) Coil Box Assembly
(Steve Jelf informed me that the coil box appears on the engine in December of 25, sooo, this box was only used for a month seemingly before they changed it to the long reach arm style box in 26.
Typical 1926 - 1927 Coil Box Assembly
Well how about that! Look what showed upon ebay;
Martin, I was looking for some other stuff today, and checked out two 26-7 coilboxes for the style of rivets used. Bear in mind, mine are Canadian sourced. The rivets used are hollow brass items, installed with the hollow end outside the box.
Of particular interest is their location, just 1/2" in from the ends of the box, rather than between the two end coils. That would make your drawing easier!
Allan from down under.
Martin, I do not think there is enough info yet as to the short mount box being a 25 only item. I have only heard of the short mount box just recently. As of this time, I only know of three. From what little I have read about them so far is they are a possible box for very late 25 model year, just before the introduction of the Improved models in Aug of 1925. They may also "carry over" into early 26 model production. There is just not enough info yet for me to draw any real conclusions as to time frame. But it is obvious they "do exist" and they appear to be one more of the many changes made during the introduction of the Improved models. Mark, I am now the proud owner of the e-bay box you posted the link to. I may need it for my very early 26 touring, so as they say "buy it when you find it" "there may not be another chance"
Mark, I found the box listed by accident. The photos of the short bracket were not clear enough to be sure it had not been broken or modified from a long bracket. So while I waited for an answer to a question about the bracket and better pictures, there were several people "watching" the auction. Which seemed strange to me, considering what the items were. So I was a nervous wreck till I finally got good photos and bought it as a "buy it now". It may have been your link that caused all the "watchers" and I was un-aware of you posting the link ...
A point of clarification, I hope. The engine-mounted coil box (5001B) first appears in the December 1925 Parts List. That doesn't mean that's when the part was first used. Actual use is listed as 26-27, which we all know begins with August 1925. Unfortunately I haven't seen any illustration showing the box with either short or long brackets, and there are not separate listings for short and long brackets. Maybe somebody has the actual December 1925 book and can post pictures I don't have. At this point I have no idea whether the short-bracket box was introduced on late 1925 cars (June/July 1925) or early 1926 cars (August/September 1925). Either way, their scarcity tells us they didn't last long.
Steve, here is the link to a earlier discussion on the two different boxes.
I looked at my Jan 1925 parts list and no mention of a different coil box. Just the one with the switch and the later "starter" style without the switch. In my 1928 parts list it shows a photo of the Improved style coil box. But it does not show a view of the long arm. But the parts list does list the brackets separate and shows a picture of the separate brackets. One long and one short bracket, like the common style Improved boxes have. It could also be that the "early" short bracket style did not last long enough to make it into a parts list. The short bracket box on Dale Myers sons car is an Improved Model 1926, then Dan Treace has a short bracket box in his parts collection, and now the one I bought off e-bay makes three I know of. Does anyone else know of any more short bracket coil boxes. I would love to add a few more to the list.
There are plenty of factors to maintain confusion and mystery. One is that some folks insist on using calendar years as model years. Thus, to them, a 1923 ford made in December of 1922 is a "late 1922" even though it has all the 1923 features and Ford called it a 1923. Another mystery is the apparent discrepancy between the publication dates printed in the Ford parts lists and the dates ascribed to them in Bruce's list. For example, Donnie has a January 1925 parts list. Bruce lists an August 1923 book followed by a December 1925 book, with no mention of January 1925. The last book Bruce shows is October 1927, but the one most of us have in reprint is dated August 1928. I believe that last book is the only one covering engine and chassis parts after 1923 that's available in reprint. The guess that the short-bracket box wasn't around long enough to appear in a parts book makes perfect sense to me. It was probably used on only a few cars before Ford engineers decided it wasn't stable enough, and changed to the longer bracket.
I can not offer confirmed assistance, however I have two 26-27 coil boxes that are not original but do provide some information.
The power bolt at the bottom of the box is a 10x24x 3/4" with a square collar that fits in the power distribution strip (5001BCONBQ) when tightened up it will not turn. It appears to be at the end closest to the firewall and the other two holes are secured with slotted clinch rivets.
It appears that the rivets that secure the wood component to the frame from the inside may also have been slotted clinch rivets. The metal strap at the bottom of the box has two holes in it for wood screws to secure the base component. I have two boxes of the slotted clinch rivets they had many purposes. I will try to send some pictures of the rivets when I figure out how.
Who would have thought that a slotted clinch rivet would be called a bifurcated rivet in English speaking countries.
Allan from down under.
I have the late '25 (June) and the coil box is still on the firewall.
The short bracket box was used on some EARLY '26s not late '25.
I also have an original late 25 Touring with the coil box on the firewall. Serial #12066xxx with a production date of July 1, 1925 according to Bruce's book.
Bifurcated Rivets is the formal name for the split rivets. The bifurcated rivets would hold the wood components in place and offer some movement. I am unsure what was used originally, however one coil box I had was fitted with two split rivets, therefore I assumed that's what was used. This style of rivet was used in harness making in the 1900s. They are quick and easy to install and hold well.
In review of my 26-27 coil box I may have been incorrect in my previous post. The bottom wood component that supports the power strip does not appear to be secured to the metal box, I firstly thought it was secured with wood screws, however the wood screws appear to only enter the vertical wood component (1/2"). The power strip in the bottom of the box appears to be secured at the end closest to the fire wall with a #10 - 24 x 3/4" brass screw for the power supply and the other two holes appear to be secured with rivets, the question is what type of rivet? The holes in the base wood component are recessed so that the rivet head is flush with the surface. It appears that the rivets enter from the outside and are secured on the inside. A split rivet (bifurcated) appears to be the most probable. When I disassembled one for rebuilding it had two split rivets in the bottom. To remove the contact strip I had to grind the "wings" off the rivets to get it out. It is therefore only an assumption that the vertical wood component was also secured with split rivets. An additional note (observation) immediately adjacent to the outboard rivet hole is a very small hole that a #55 (.052) drill bit will go through. I have no idea what it is for. The wood components appear to be 1/2" thick and made of two 1/4" pieces glued together.box}
I have never seen split rivets used in our Canadian sourced coilboxes. The tubular rivets in the two I have in my swap meet stocks have shallow rounded heads just like split rivets. The heads of the rivets are recessed in the timber pieces on the inside of the coilbox, well out of way of the coils when they are slid into place. The burred over hollow end is expanded to make the rivet hold on the steel cross piece. The hollow rivets do not have flat heads and are of lighter gauge material than the hollow rivets used to hold brake linings to the shoes.
Allan from down under.
That would explain why the top strap is flattened. The clasps that hold the top are secured with hollow rivets. I guess the one I had was repaired by a harness maker. The hollow rivets make more sense. Could you confirm from your stock how the wood assembly is arranged. Is the vertical wood component secured with wood screws at the bottom, or is the bottom wood component secured with wood screws? Is the bottom piece secured or is it just a tight fit? Is the brass power strip on the bottom riveted with hollow brass rivets? Is the brass power supply bolt the same as the carriage bolts securing the coil contacts? I have two brass power straps and both have round holes, one has had a carriage bolt forced through it and therefore an undefined square hole. This begs the question what style of bolt was it?
Here is one more question about the 2 bolt mount.
It has been suggested that the design was changed because it was weak and wobbled and that there are so few remaining because the original owners changed them out for the 3 bolt mount boxes.
My son's roadster had been driven a lot. It had a 1958 state inspection sticker on the windshield and the car was worn out. But the 2 bolt coil box was still intact and still properly attached to the engine when we bought it in 2006.
The one Dan Treace has and the one Donnie Brown bought on eBay both look like they have seen a lot of use and both look to be un damaged.
So why was the design changed so early?
Dale, good question. We may never know for sure. It could have been a design engineer at Ford "perceived" a problem and fixed it... ???
David, from my limited supply of boxes,
The base timber is not fixed in the tin box. The side timber goes clear to the bottom and thus holds the base timber against the front of the box.
There are two metal straps against which the side timber fits. There are holes at the ends of both straps, but only the top one has rivets to hold the timber. The hollow rivets are of such a thin gauge that the slight crown in the straps is NOT squashed flat.
The contact strip in the bottom has two hollow rivets holding it in place. The third hole at one end has a carriage bolt the same as those used at the terminals on the side except that it is a little shorter. Forcing the square under the bolt head through a round hole, may well have been intentional, to guarantee a good electrical contact.
As stated above, my Canadian boxes have the rivet holes in the straps just 1/2" in from the ends of the box.
Allan from down under.
Thanks A B you have answered most of my questions, there is still one outstanding point. The side timber goes to the bottom and is held in place with two rivets, what goes through the two holes in the bottom strap? I was wondering if maybe wood screws? The top strap on my box has been flattened because bolts and nuts were used and over tightened. I want to redo this box as original as possible. I am going to order the brass carriage bolts and contacts from Lang's.
The rivets are 5/32 they just press firmly through the hole. I have one rivet in my collection and it is a solid rivet, therefore I will have to order some hollow rivets. I have not used hollow rivets before but I understand there is a tool that is inserted in the hollow part and splits it open and then is peened with a light hammer?
David, on mine the only fixings on either of the wood pieces, are the two hollow rivets on the TOP strap. There is nothing in the holes in the bottom strap.
To set just two rivets, you could use a blunt punch to get the rivet expanded at first and then use a suitable pin punch to complete the set. The biggest problem will be getting a suitable anvil in place inside the box on the rivet head. Perhaps a piece of all thread cut to length, with a nut on the other end to make a load on the rivet head would do the trick.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
When I used aluminum tubular rivets on my top bows, I set a punch in my vice and then had my wife hold the head of the rivet on the punch with the bow, then used the ball side of a ballpeen hammer on the hollow end of the rivet, then hit the hammers face with another hammer, until it spread the rivet, then finished it off with the other hammer...sounds overly complicated I know, but it made for a nice tight set. I would try the same thing on the box as well, since the opening of the box is pretty close to the strap you're going to set that rivet into, should be easy to get the end of a punch on the head of that rivet as well...or use the split rivet, where you spread it with a screwdriver and then just smack it down.
All this is good info...the size of the rivet and the power bolt, these are two things I didn't know...Lang's kit for the contacts includes two more bolts than needed, maybe you're supposed to use one of them for that center power bolt as well? They're about the right length.
Ok, I'll make these changes and post the corrected pics here...hopefully before the new year.
Martin, I received my short bracket coil box today. I do not have photos taken yet. But I did notice at least one thing of interest. The metal strip across the back with the holes for the two rivets to attach the wood to on the long bracket boxes. On my short bracket box that strip does not have any holes for the rivets . Ill try and get photos tomorrow ...
Ok, here are my correction for the 25 (late) which is probably really a 26 as Steve has pointed out, but all the DMV's at that time went by the manufacture date, not the model date, which is probably why so many cars are referred to as "early" this or "late" that, because of the date on their registration slips from the DMV.
Anyhoo, this is the "Late" 25 Coil Box. I am also assuming that the "Power Connection Post" is actually the same as the Coil Finger carriage bolts, so I gave it the same part number. Lang's kits all include one or two extra of those bolts and I'm figuring it's for this purpose.
26-27 long bracket arm Coil Box.
And since there seems to be enough discrepancies between the domestics and the foreign I made a version for the Canadian 26-27 as well. I know that far rivet hole is kind of hard to see, but it is there, trust me on that.
Also on the Canadians I didn't know whether or not they used the split rivet for the bottom contact strip or those tubular rivets, please get back to me on that and I'll make the change if they're the tubular.
Please look them over and let me know if you think there is anything I missed and I'll try and make those changes as quickly as I can.
Martin, thanks for your work. We will all be indebted to you in the years to come.
Re the Canadian coilboxes you have drawn, I have two observations.
First, both straps on the back of the box have the two holes for the rivets on the samples I have.
Second, the pickup bolt on the lower contact strip is in the end hole of the strip, at the single mount end.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Thanks Martin for sharing such splendid work. It takes allot of time to do things like this. I enjoy your posts. PLEASE, keep up the great work!!!!! We'll have a complete (detailed) parts manual someday
Allan not sure what you mean about the power post...which side is it on then? I'm figuring that it's probably on the side closest to the firewall and the connection block, to me that just makes more sense than the other side...please let me know if it matters or not.
Also is the bottom strap riveted to the vertical board with tubular or split rivets or are the hole just there with nothing in them?
Martin, you have the power connection bolt in the correct place. The bottom strap on the box does not have any rivets. I guess it made sense to make just one type of bracket for the assembly. I don't know if you want go to extreme detail, but to accommodate the ends of the straps where they are folded around the outside of the box, a relief is pressed into the heavy mounting bracket pressing. The little tab you show on the end of the back strap is on the outside of the box and thus is not visible. It is sandwiched between the box side and the bracket.
This has no bearing on the value of your drawings as an accurate reference.
Allan from down under.
Actually if you could see the original of this drawing (8.5 x 11 at 300dpi) you'd see that the bottom strap does indeed wrap around the outside of the box sandwiched between the mounting brackets.
The upper one from the pictures I've gotten, the strip is spot welded to the interior of the box...If yours is different, please let me know and I'll make that change.
Allan, I tried to make it a bit more pronounced, but I'm not sure with the resolution I've got to publish it here as, if you'll see it or not.
The other thing that maybe isn't too noticeable either is that the upper portions of the box sides that are above the upper strap are slightly longer and curl round and over to act as the backing support for the vertical contact board, that is riveted to the strap....I think that is one reason that this strap is spot welded to the interior of the box and not to the exterior...as a support issue. But if your boxes are different again, please let me know and I'll make changes...if you've got pictures of this that's even better than trying to draw by descriptions.
Martin, I have a photo for you but can't post it!!!!
It shows both rear straps bent over outside the box sides. The bottom one is clearly visible. The top one is sandwiched between the bracket and the box side. The bracket has a pressing in it to allow it to go over the strap end.
The relief in the base timber for the rivets is quite deep. IF, repeat IF, split rivets were ever used, the heads of these would be in the deep recesses and the split ends bent over the metal contact strip, just as the tubular rivets are set.
I will try to email you the photo.
Allan from down under.
Martin. I revisited the parts pile today and took a couple photos of the tubular rivet, and also of the beveled wood strip that plug/timer wire bolts go thru. There are two styles of that wood strip. One is beveled like the photo and the other more common one is just square cornered. Out of 17 coil boxes I had that had wood in them 4 had the tapered corner style strips and 13 had the square corner style strips. I had 26 coil boxes total to look at and here are my findings
1. All boxes had tube rivets and no split rivets holding the wood to the back metal straps
2 all of the power input screw/bolt for the bottom brass finger strips were at the rear of the box
3 All metal tie straps on rear of box are spot welded to the inside of the box
4 All of the coil boxes had the tube rivet holes in the top metal strips only. There were no holes in any of the bottom strips. The only exception to the holes being only in the top strap is my early short bracket box I bought on e-bay. It has no tube rivet holes in either metal strap.
5 as mentioned above, I had 17 boxes with remaining original wood. four of the wood strips for the coil/plug wire bolts are made with a "taper" corner, and the remaining 13 original wood, had the more common "square" corner type of strips.
I have been thinking about the "short bracket" "Improved Model" coil box being used on any 1925 cars being highly unlikely. I under stand that model year and fiscal year can confuse things, but the 1925 models to the 1926 models is very obvious as to most changes. The "Improved Model" coil box on a 1925 would not be needed or even used. The Improved coil box was made because of the location of the gas tank on the Improved Models making in necessary . On 1925 models the gas tank was still under the seat and the firewall was still flat with the holes for the coil box insulators. So I see no reason at all that a 1925 model could have the short bracket coil box. It is probably another variation of the early 26 (model year) parts changes that came out after Aug 1925
My suggestion would be to just call the short bracket coil box "early 1926" till we find a date of change for the part.
I think the work you are doing is great and is a asset to the members, the hobby, and even the vendors. Thank you ....
Here is the tapered style wood strip for the plug/timer wires
These are the pics of the short bracket coil box I just got on e-bay. Notice that the rear metal straps have no holes in either strap. It is obvious that the two short brackets are factory installed.
(Message edited by dobro1956 on January 01, 2017)
I agree with Donnie for the reasons he stated. There's no reason for such a box on a 1925 car. It's early 1926 unless somebody finds documentation proving otherwise.
"Early 26" is fine by me and I think we all agree that it is an early 26, built in late 25...the problem is whatever title folks have will specify this car to be 25 because that's the year it was either sold in originally and or built in.
The date of change wont make much difference, since Ford started the 26 production in August of 25...so anything that came along after that date is a "26" not a "25" even though most folks go by the year of manufacture rather than Fords stipulated production years...and how do people find out when their car was built when they don't have an original title? The engine number of course. And if that number says it was built in September of 25...guess what? Folks are going to think they've got a 25, not an early 26.
I suppose for the sake of argument, we could just label this as you say Donnie, "Early 26" and let folks figure it out for themselves, you know somebody is going to pop up sometime and say "hey my car was made in 25 not 26 and has this short footed coil box on it too and I know it's factory original, because my great granddad bought it that way". Just saying guys, you and I both know this is going to happen sometime.
Am I not understanding something properly? I thought Donnie Brown had a picture of the early 1926 coil box (probably produced in the year 1925 as a 1926 model vehicle) that the metal strips, upper and lower did not have holes for tubular rivets! Perhaps I am missing something, but does your picture show the rivets? This is probably nite picking, but I think we all want everything to be as accurate as possible. In fact perhaps your drawing is correct as is, and I am just not understanding the early box which I know nothing about!
Arnie, We all really "know nothing" about the short bracket coil box. It appears that we have a grand total of three coil boxes (so far) from the "fossil evidence" to base anything on. But it clearly seems to be another of the early changes for me to add to the "ever growing" list of unique parts for the Improved Models studies. I understand what Martin is saying about the calender/fiscal year dating problem. There is not much we can do about that. The people that pre date their cars because of title, engine number or whatever are just mistaken. Nothing wrong or bad to say about that. Its just the way it is. But Model Ts are based on fiscal or model year, not by date of engine, title, or what grandpa said it was. Because in reality all year models of Model Ts were built in two separate calendar years. And it can be a very "touchy" subject to some folks... But with the Improved Models it is a very clear and clean transition. Aug 1925 is considered the model year of the Improved Models, and since very, very, very, few parts were not changed for the Improved Models. And the car is so different from a 1925 and before. Any car made after Aug 1925 is an Improved model 1926-27 car. The only possible exception to that could be pre production or prototype cars made before Aug 1925. But even those would have the Improved Model features. As to my short bracket coil box not having any tube rivet holes in the back straps. I do not know if Dan Treace's box or Dale Myers sons coil box has the holes or not ... have fun and be safe Donnie Brown ...
Arnie...it appears you are correct, I went back and looked at all three examples I have of the "Early" 26 box and on none of does there seem to be any holes for rivets at all. Which if you think about it make for some kind of sense, they'd assume that the coils would be in the box, so what would the need be to rivet any wood parts in place? Or maybe perhaps these boxes were merely experiments and never intended to be production models at all, so why treat them as anything other than a slapped together rough go to see if the concept worked or not. Whatever the reason, I made these changes.
Also noticed from all my pictures and those of Donnie's as well, that both the base strap and the center strap are wider than the later boxes straps, maybe this gave more support to the wood so a rivet wasn't necessary until they reduced the width of these metal strips?