Had brought it up within a discussion of 'snowfall', then not really addressed further.
"Saw the news about a big 'winter pile-up' in CT, and had a thought about the 'driver-less' technology.... Think the 'no-drivers' have ever been tested on any of our winter roads?? We already know about the "Invincible Idiots" who are out there and the hazards they present!"
Does anyone know? As we await tonight for another 4-6" of 'That Fleecy Skid Stuff'.
The latest I've read, snow and snow covered roads were two of the many scenarios where the computers throw in the towel and turn the driving back to the human driver.
Driverless cars are the greatest threat to American personal freedoms in the history of our country. You will be putting your movements within the view of any left-coast software idiots who will collect where you have been and will want to turn the info over for a buck. Also don't forget the fools in Congress. They will figure a way to control your movements. It will happen. Shut the self driving cars down, and the have you where they want you. Really.
Gary, it's already happening - I got a letter from State Farm offering me a discount on my auto insurance if I would install a tracking device on my car that recorded where I went and how fast I drove.
I suppose the idea was that they would adjust my rates lower if I always obeyed the speed limits and only drove in "safe" areas.
I called my agent and told him that I had no interest in the device and I thought it was the most diabolical misuse of technology that I could imagine.
So far I haven't heard back, and my existing non-monitored policy hasn't been cancelled.
We're already in that situation. Most of us carry a cell phone. We use the Internet. Our habits are already tracked by all manner of folks, some just wanting to sell something, some wanting to steal from us, and some who want absolute control. Nothing new.
A friend (also here on MTFCA) just bought a brand new Hellcat from the dealer. An impenetrable computer monitor, (a/k/a the 'Black Box') is in the car, being an on board tattle-tale, revealing if he were to 'try' the 700 HP beast. I think I'll keep on repairing my old car, regardless!
I dunno. I'm sort of looking forward to a few years from now when I'm old and the self-driving pod shows up at my house to take me to the doctor or my predetermined time slot at the grocery store. Just sounds like more nap time for me!
Every newer car's Body Control Module (BCM) stores a wealth of data on your driving habits every time you use your car. It is your insurance company's best friend.
And makes ya wonder if "Soylent Green" wasn't so far fetched after all, and just around the corner!!
"When?" did the BCM become part of the standard equipment? Mandated by whom? Or arbitrarily done?
I am aware of computer-controlled systems, fuel injection needs, scanners, idiot lights, etc. but NOT the 'monitor' part...
If I 'pass gas' upon my heated seat, is THAT being monitored?
In California they have been debating on taxing the cars for the number of miles driven. That would require some type of computerized surveilance system. They say that cars getting better mileage or electric cars are not paying gas tax, so they want to change to miles driven. That causes me to question about miles driven in other states? They would need to track miles driven in California. Also what about people who come in from other states or from Mexico and drive in California? Who would pay their share for usage of roads?
Gosh, things just get better and better, don't they ?
One of the things that kicked me over the edge to get a T again was my wife's new Edge . . . I know we've been driving computers for some time now, but that thing is over the top, definitely transitional to get you used to the "driverless" car, and I hate it !!
With all these wonderments "trending" it won't be long before my sole means of transportation will be my saddle horse, and the Model T !! (and I'm OK with that !)
BCMs have been around for at least a decade or two. They are used in conjunction with the Engine Control Monitor (ECM) and various other Sensor control modules.
They relay commands from, say, your brake pedal switch to the ABS module, or stiffen the suspension according to the whims of the yaw control sensors. All of this is stored and can be retrieved. It can tell if you hit your brakes and when before an accident, if your ABS was engaged, how fast you where going, exactly when your airbags were deployed and whether or not you had your seatbelt on and (most importantly) if you were talking on your telephone or looking at the MTFCA website (if your telephone is synced up to your car) when you ran that red light and plowed into that funeral procession. I guess it was mandated by all the car companies to more accurately control the highly complicated electrical systems in modern cars.
And yes, if you pass some highly toxic gas that corrodes your imbedded seat belt monitoring sensor, it will also store the fail code for that circuit.
All this data is relayed thru the ALDL plug under the dash of every car with OBD (on board diagnostics) to various degrees- the newer the car, the more info that can be stored and recovered.
Yes, they also keep track of your mileage. My new car emails me when it is getting close to an oil change time, based on my mileage, which is also relayed to the dealer via the satellite link up through GM's OnStar system.
I change my own oil (its faster, cheaper, and I leave less of a mess in the engine bay) reset the onboard information page to reflect that, and the emails stop coming.
A " driverless " vehicle hopefully would NOT operate in adverse driving conditions.
That would be an advantage.
A good percentage of commercial drivers today are of Indian persuasion.
I recently spent (3) days at 7 Feathers Truck Stop in Canyonville, OR waiting for a clear shot south on I-5.
The Indian drivers congregated around one fellow driver
in the grocery section - that guy had a road app on a smart phone - as soon as the I-5 opened - they all left in a group.
Half hour later - jack knifed semi closed southbound I-5 again.
The non - Indian drivers waited patiently in the lounge.
Just an observation I see repeated again and again all over
the country every winter.
I've always felt that "The truth has a right to be known!" Cuz if ya dun't have nuthin ta hide, den dere's nuttin ta vurry bout!!
(Imagine teenagers on Lovers'Lane!? Then what?) Big Brother should mind his own business, and its about time he gets out of ours..... 'Freedom' is eroding away!
The 'Invincible Idiots' vs. 'Common Sense'!
Get over it. You've been traceable for years. Phones, computers, car electronics, EZ pass and I'll bet a half a dozen other items I don't know about. Self driving cars? Their coming and it's unstoppable. All obstacles will be over come with time, road deaths will drop to near zero, driving skills will be lost and collectables will be in museums.
I looked over a Tesla a few weeks ago in the tire store.On it's computer monitor it was showing which tires were off the car. It's climate control was keeping it 70 inside as a picture of Tim Mrgraw was about where a speedometer shoulda been to show who was singing on the radio.
Me and the manager talked awhile about the self driving crap as we had heard about the roofless car and headless "driver" incident a few days before.
The manager then told me about the owner of the car we were looking at. He said," Oh yea, the guy that owns this car, it ran over HIM". I said, "how the hello did that happen?" "Well he set it up and let someone else sit behind the wheel and it was driving it's self, the guy walked in front of it and WHAM, didn't hurt him to bad as it was going slow".
I just shook my head,and went on with my day. I hope I don't encounter many of those cars.
I will be the first to admit,When I was in college I drew up plans for a passive guidance system. Something that would alert a driver if he crossed 1 of the lines. It could have been made to work from a electrical signal sent from under pavement wires or reflected light from the glass beads in the road paint. But NEVER would I have even conceived a idea of a car driving it's self.
I had a professor in college that had designed alot of the control systems in our nuclear plants in the early 80's. He was of Iranian descent and was smart. He told us, " Never let electronics take full control of ANYTHING. Always keep the human element.".
I guess even back then he could see the problems that was arise from total computer control.
Just think back to the original Star trek when they put the M5 in control of the Enterprise. NOT good.
The idea of self driving cars and passive guidance has been around for a lot of years. Ok so it was buried wire guidance and radar to keep the cars at a safe distance apart but I recall seeing a PM from the late 50's early 60's that talked about it. Right up there with a phone the size of a compact you could hold in your hand and see the person you were talking to. (about the same era)
OT the OT? A pilot friend (I believe he flies for fedex) of mine was mentiong how he will sometimes land and be greated by maintence crews asking about a warning he got while he was flying or a high temp etc. It seems for many many years aircraft engines send signals to their home bases/factory. For some reason this was completly ignored on that Malaysia flight and kept out of the news. They knew it was still airborn hours after it was suposed to have crashed as the signals were still being sent.
I am just wondering how long it will be before you start getting larger insurance bills and license points for speeding or what not based on the information your car sends law enforcement.
Say you test out your 700 hp Hellcat on I40 for 10 miles. A couple weeks later your next insurance bill is alot higher because your playtime was reported and punishment rendered.
I can understand cruse control, and self applying brakes. But cannot understand how a self driving car can stay in a lane. Especially in traffic or on mountain or curvy roads. What is used to identify the lane boundaries or the edge of the road? If it is something external to the car, it would take an eternity to equip all roads with whatever guidance system is needed and many dollars to maintain. If it is done through the internet or satellite communications, an outage would be a catastrophe. Is there anyone on this forum who understands how the system works?
What I REALLY cannot get my head around is why ANYONE thinks this
is a good idea ! This really blows my mind ! It is like dumping tons of
research money into making a turd taste good. Where is the "up" side
to this ???
I THINK lane boundaries are determined by the same systems that allow backup cameras, hands free parking and blind-spot warnings. I guess if you combine these with the steering wheel position sensor(part of the ABS), and maybe a dose of sun-spot or EMP vulnerable GPS, your car can track your position and any at-speed deviation from norm can trigger an alarm. If you look at the plastic "bumper" on a new car, you will notice odd little divots or what appear to be tiny blank off panels arrayed along its surface. These are some of the multiple sensors that detect on-coming vehicles and obstacles. These no doubt play a role (they certainly play a role in making a 5mph crash cost BIG $$$ if you have to replace them!)
As folks demand more and more technology to assist them in, or completely take over the task of controlling a few tons of speeding metal while they sit comfortably inside and read their Facebook stream, this is where we all end up.
True, cars and trucks run much cleaner, get better mileage, squeeze more and more horsepower out of smaller and smaller engines, last longer and drive much more comfortably than even 5 years ago and all this is due to the advances allowed by this same technology, so, broadly speaking, it is a trade-off we all benefit from---I guess......
A few years ago a young man went thru a stop sign and hit a woman which caused serious injury. They towed his pickup truck to my body shop. The next day the Sheriff called me and told me not to touch that truck. Then the State Patrol accident investigative team showed up. They told me they were going to take the computer out and take it with them. The truck was totaled and towed away. The injured lady was a Deputy's wife.
Burger - Knowing something of your other interests besides Model T Fords (railroads for example) I'm sure you'll agree with a "comparison" I'm about to make:
The railroad industry is presently undertaking a huge, huge project right now (and has been for quite some time now) which is called,..."PTC", or, "Positive Train Control". Without going into detail (most of which I don't understand anyway) this system would address the railroads problem of horrible catastrophic RR accidents due to what I'll call,..."human failure", such as crew fatigue, head end crew falling asleep, using cell phones, texting, etc, etc., as well as other accidents not caused by human failure.
My point here is that as huge, difficult and ambitious as this project is, I believe that "driverless cars" would be much, much more complicated and expensive than the railroads PTC project, and the RR project is projected to cost billions, and billions, and is taking (and will take) many years to fully develop, install, and integrate into the entire North American Railroad system. And now we're talking about highways? Frankly, I don't ever expect to see it,....of course, I am 75 years old, but still,.......???
This technology and automation still make no sense for ANY winter driving. ABS helps, but not on ice. So, if a human driver would need to 'take over' in the winter, what do you think the driver's reflexes and 'road experience' would actually be?
From my point of view, we already see too many of those 'Invincible Idiots' vs. those using 'Common Sense'! Ever know a computer using common sense when encountered with an emergency? Pretty hard to 're-boot/re-start' in a split second...., isn't it?
Burger's analogy is correct!
Driverless vehicles ??? already happening in OZ fellas, in the huge Iron Ore mines in Western Australia, and the plans are well advanced for the trains that carry the product to the Port to be unmanned.
I remember about a decade ago seeing a report on some guys (computer geeks) that outfitted a car with computers etc and used an optical eye to determing road lines other cars etc. If memory serves of the cross country trip 97% of the time the car was completly driven by the computers with someone sitting in the seat just in case.
On the practical side driving on an open road at night at speed and a rabbit jumps into your path. A driver who thinks knows to take his foot off the gas and go on thru. Whats going to happen when a car tries to come to a comlete stop from 65mph? What if its on a turn? A mountaing road?
I am very happy with my car and will continue to put time and money into it over the decades to keep it running right and even better than new. The question then comes are they going to force me to stop driving my car?
Those aren't 'road vehicles', nor are they operating within slippery conditions. With much of the USA being exposed to winter weather at some point, I would be fearful.
Great link on the mining operation. That is some real money working there.
We have a few places in our area where the original interstate lanes were separate slabs of concrete with the lane boundary at the edge of the concrete of each lane. At a later date the lanes were changed and the lines with Botts Dots were painted down the middle of the original lane. I wonder if this would cause a problem? Also in some areas the lane striping has been worn off or removed. it is even hard to drive where that has happened, especially on a curve at night.
There are so many scary things about self driving. What would happen if a signal turned red just as you approached an intersection which has no cross traffic? Would it jam on the brake and stop half way across? Or would it continue to go through which would be safer than the stop.
Anyway, I hope and pray that these cars will not be allowed until ALL the bugs are ironed out.
Marv... for certain the very LAST thing to worry about in the Pilbara is cold/snow. The township of Marble Bar set a world record of most consecutive days of 100 °F or above, during a period of 160 days from 31 October 1923 to 7 April 1924.No snow-mobiles T's in that place. :-)
I AM AN AMERICAN MALE AND I AM A BETTER DRIVER THAN ANY OF YOU OR ANY AUTOMATED CAR WILL EVER BE.
Don't forget it!!!!!
An American male or female can not drive as good as a computer can on an Iowa cornfield....
I like driving and don't much like riding with others but I also have a new Tahoe and am finding out that the lowly Chevy has some pretty darn nice features which I have grown to like when on certain driving trips.
Lane departure, crash avoidance and the bumper sensors with a backup camera are really pretty nice.
I think it's like my wife would Never use her cruise control even on a long and boring drive. Just not feeling comfortable or trusting it.
To each his own but don't put down the computer age of driving cause we'll see it sooner than later. I just hope we will always have the option to self control and enjoy the driving.
So whats the resale going to be in 10 years on these cars?
Just to let a few of you guys know, self driving cars exist. Several companies are already testing them on private property or on public road trials. Teslas can check their surroundings then enter the next lane over just by you turning on your turn signal. Porsches have had highway automated throttle and braking for a couple years now.
I think maybe I'll start collecting steering wheels as they're going to become extinct!
The driver-less manufacturers will provide us even more 'Invincible Idiots' when vehicles encounter slippery conditions. We know that 'Cruise Control' in the rain can turn into 'hydro-plane' in a split second, and guess what happens then??? Dumb drivers, or perhaps a dumb idea, passed off as improved technology? The most likely to fail item in a car still seems to be 'that loose nut behind the steering wheel'... Why not add some 'common sense'? ("It's not that common!")
If a "driverless car" has to have a driver to take over, why not just drive the car? As has been been mentioned, what happens in snow/ice conditions, or any other problems? Back when the hydrogen fueled vehicles were being promoted several years ago, the main advantage was that the only by product from the exhaust was water. That would be great, but where would all of that water go when the temperature fell below freezing? I NEVER heard or saw anything that addressed that issue. Also, the new electric cars now have charging stations that are free. We are paying for the electricity to charge them, AND, they pay no road use tax that I know of. Some states have been trying to figure out how to compensate for the lost revenue. Maybe they should charge a tax on the electricity. I would think that it wouldn't be too hard to design a meter that would moniter it just as a household. Seems like a no brainer to me. End of rant. JMHO Dave
I retired from the collision industry. GM Was getting the hell sued out of them for every accident that one of their vehicles was involved in . As a self-defense measure the black box feature was incorporated into their vehicles quite some time ago. A laptop will tell you speed , direction, time of day, brake application, etc. What concerns me is not the mining of data by the government, but possible future ability of governmental misuse as it pertains to restriction of lawful personal movement. A Million Man or Mom march or such in D.C. could be impossible to assemble if the transportation was denied by the very people being demonstrated against. Think about it...
Gary , I am thinking about it. I think driverless technology will evolve step by step. This will change everything auto related. If your car is completely automated ,who would be at fault when an accident occurs? The auto insurance industry would go broke. There would be no need for highway patrol because violations would not occur. Lawyers
, courts and judges would have to find another means of bilking the public of BILLIONS. In other words, who is responsible for anything that should happen? After all, we will only be passengers. I don't think the auto industry is ready or willing to accept this burden. Our entire society will change. WE will pay the bill for all of the ramifications. Lenney
Cars with edr (electronic data recorders) by year, make, and model. 2014 and earlier. Edr, not bcm!
In answer to Lenney, I think that there would still be lawyers, but they would sue the manufacturers or repair shops and get very large sums and also there would be huge recalls just like the current recalls on such things as air bags or faulty crise controls.
Where's the public out roar? Are defense attorneys able to dispute those "EDR's"??
The information about the Malaysian flight that disappeared sending signals was not kept out of the news. I heard about it on CBS within a few days of the disappearance.
Self driving cars have been tested and are being tested in wintry conditions. Remember, the big 3 are based in Detroit, Germany gets plenty of snow as does Japan so operating on ice and snow are part of the development of this technology by all manufacturers. As someone who also enjoys motorcycles, I worry more about those who continue to drive while texting. Automated cars for those folks and the rest of their ilk can't come soon enough for me. The automated braking systems of many current vehicles will nearly eliminate the chance of you and your Model T getting rear ended as you cruise (usually slower than traffic) down the road.
Something like 90% of accidents are the result of human error so I predict the adoption of self driving cars will put a lot of ambulance chasing lawyers out of business. Is that a bad thing?
You all hear about the attorney standing at the fixture doing his business and as he's looking down he notices next to the deodorant cake there is a dime standing on end...he looks around and then says ''naaah I ain't sticking my hand in no urinal for a dime'', finishes up and zips. As he turns to leave he slaps himself on the forehead, sticks his hand in his pocket and pulls out 90 cents. He then threw it in the urinal and said ''I will go in after a dollar....
Boy I can't wait til they come out with retro fit self driving systems for our T's! Then we won't have to push pedals or adjust timing or have a tight grip on the wheel anymore but can, instead, just enjoy a nice game of free cell on our phones and/or do some texting (if you're into that)......
Yep, good changes are coming........