I took my wheels off to refurbish and paint, my rear hub is dirty, anything I should think about doing while I am in there? See picture.
Looks like the seal is leaking. There are two seals. One is inside behind the wheel bearing. I am not sure the inner seal is original equipment, but they are available from the parts suppliers. That will keep the oil inside the differential. The other outer seal is a felt seal which goes behind that removable cup. That one will hold in the wheel bearing grease. There is also a neoprene version of the outer seal. While it's out inspect the roller bearings and sleeves. If the sleeves are excessively worn replace. The clearance between the axle and bearing should be no more than .005 inch.
That's not your hub. It's your axle shaft and backing plate. Clean it up really well and show us how the keyway looks. The hub is the part that's still in your wheel. Clean it really well too and show us how the tapered hole and keyway looks there as well.
If you don't know the condition of the interior of your rear axle, continue tearing it down to make sure all is well. Steve Jelf should be along shortly to give you the spiel.
Assuming you already have the bronze thrust washers in the rear, I would clean it all up, probably repack the outer bearing with new grease and check the sleeve for wear. Put it all back together, and enjoy---you do have a brake shoe to go on there too, right?
If you really feel inclined to--or if the bearing sleeve is worn, I would pull it and then replace the inner seal with the modern neoprene one and then put a new sleeve back in.
As Jerry pointed out, good to check the axle keyway for cracks (common on original axles) and check the hub (on the wheel) for wear too.
Wow there was no brake shoes!
Will clean it up and take pictures, thanks. I don't have a wheel puller yet so right now I am unable to get the other side off to take a look.
Ignacio, Yes, there should be the parking brake shoes in there. You can get lined accessory shoes (the factory ones are all cast iron), but unless you intend on making them work with your transmission brake, they are in fact just a parking brake (also an Oh S#!* brake if the trans brake fails). It looks like the bolt to retain the shoes is there, just not the shoe and return springs.
If you do not know the condition of the rear axle as far as it being rebuilt, you might want to consider as pointed out above to take it out and disassemble it and see what is going on with the condition of parts inside. If you have a semi local T guy to help that would be even better, but at the least, get some books on rear axles and ask lots of questions here. Having that bronze thrust washer is a safety issue.
That being said, with both wheels off the ground, grab hold of that axle and push it in towards the center and pull it back out. There should be VERY little (almost non detectable) play in it. If you can move it in and out at all, the rear should come apart for rebuild.
If it is tight though, clean things up, get some parking brake shoes, repack the bearings and all as I and others described above and put it back together and enjoy---but you really need to keep in mind to disassemble for inspection of the thrust bearing. So be careful if you choose to drive it.
As far as getting the wheel off without a puller, you can just slightly leave the axle nut loose and drive the car a short distance, it should work itself loose. Another option I don't particularly recommend (especially because it could destroy a babbitt thrust washer), is as follows. Jack up the rear tire of the OPPOSITE side from the wheel your trying to remove (leave the wheel you are trying to remove on the ground). Back the axle nut off from the wheel your trying to remove to the very end so it is flush with the end of the axle. Take a big hammer (I have a 2 lb hammer) and wack the end of the axle. It should loosen it right up for you, jack that wheel up and take the nut off, it should come right off.
Ignacio, When you clean it up pull off those axle shims so you can get a good look at the condition of the axle, the outside edge looks pretty rough. Also now that you have it off the ground, now might be a good time to push and pull on the axle to see if there is any noticeable play in it which would indicate a bigger problem. Like others have said, if you don't know if the thrust washers have been changed, pull it apart now and check to be on the safe side.
Here's the spiel: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html.
And here's how to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mZzAt9Q_4k.
If I had to guess I would say that it is not a Improved car backing plate nor the correct spring perch. I think you may have an early model rear end. The 26-7 backing plate is about 10" across and the perch is only about 1/2" away from the backing plate also it would have four tabs around the edge to hold the shoes in place. I will try for some pics in the morning unless someone beats me to it. Jim
I grabbed the axle and moved it in and out and it had noticeable play in it. I wonder what the cone looking film thing in picture 1 was for? It was wrapped around the end of the axle. It seems out of place.
A few more pictures:
I am told that this is a 1913-14 differential and axle. I have no history on the car so I can only guess as to why it is attached to a 1922-23 body and 1925 motor.
A photo of the pumpkin will tell us what year it is,if a 13/14 then it's worth good dollars, that shim on the axle is used to space the hub out some so it doesn't rub on the brake shoes or the axle seal.
That cone thing appears to be an axle shim that a previous owner installed to space the rear drum away from the backing plate.
From what I see and the condition you describe, it's time to tear the whole rear axle down and go through it. Get the MTFCA axle book and follow it, it will be fun and you'll learn a lot!
I'm a skeptic on the 13-14 theory. Let's see the pumpkin and the other side of the backing plate.
The "cone" is a shim to keep the wheel hub out where it won't hit the brakes (which aren't there). Why a shim? Because the axle shaft and/or the hole in the hub are worn.
If you read my link above, you know what the in-out play means, and what you have to do about it.
It does have a 1913 - early 1915 rear housings:
Also, note the figure 8 shackles with brass oilers in the current thread.
Ignacio, From the pictures you posted in 2016 your rear axle has 1913-14 type housings. From what I see in these pictures I would want to safely remove the rear end and take it apart to check things out. The correct 1922-23 type axle housings, drive shaft tube, spring perches and shackles, etc., are not hard to find and selling you 1913-14 parts after you finish rebuilding the rear axle will help off set the rebuild cost. If you are lucky you will be able to reuse many of the rear axle internal parts. Did you ever get the car to run OK ?
Ignacio, you definitely need to take that rear apart and rebuild it. I am sorry for the bad news, but it is in your best interest for your safety and others.
You seem to be in about the same situation I was when I bought my T, in that you have a car that is pieced together and everything is worn out. I sympathize with you. If you have a early rear axle, I would agree with the above and sell the early pieces to offset the cost of the rebuild, and obtain the more correct later parts. I am not a purist per-say, but I really try to keep true to the years of parts the vehicle is intended to represent. Again, your call. Maybe you can find another complete rear axle of a later year, and it will not only give you the correct housings, but more parts so you can pick the best of the bunch between the two.
@Kevin, I am still waiting on a new key switch, and the carb is still out for rebuilding. With good coil boxes it started more reliably but would run for a minute then quit. I discovered a tank leak after that and a bad sediment bulb fuel valve. I have very little history on the car but yes it seems worn out with poorly done maintenance. The 1913-14 differential is a good thing.
Ignacio, were you able to disassemble and fix your sediment bulb?
@Mark I evaluated the 'busted everything' nature of the old sediment bulb, purchased an all new sediment bulb but kept the old one.
I reviewed the differential removal video here:
He uses specialized stands that I don't have. Is there a substitute for the large homemade-looking jack stands and the other jig to support the rear of the car and differential while removing the differential?
One of the best things I ever did was take a welding class at the local juco about 30 years ago. Being able to make simple stuff like those jack stands has come in mighty handy.
For those not set up for welding, there are a couple of choices. 1 Hire a local welding shop to make what you need. 2 Buy them ready-made. A Google search will find them.
The stands I made are 27" high. The commercially made ones I later picked up at an auction also go up to 27", with the additional advantage of being adjustable.
The crosspiece that lies across the stands to support the car is just a six foot piece of 2" square tubing. The heavy gauge I use is probably a bit of overkill, but it's what I happened to have and it sure is solid.
The adapter on the jack is very handy, but you can get along without it. If you're using adjustable stands, jack up one side of the car a bit and raise the stand on that side, then do the other side a little more, alternating until you have your 27". With this method you want the cross piece on the stands as you raise them.
I don't recommend jacking up the car with the jack in the center without the adapter. That goes for both front and rear axles.
If you prefer to buy rather than fabricate, Harbor Freight sells a jack cross beam that might do the job.
Don't forget to check the sleeves.
The HF cross beam looks like it might require a little fabricating too. Those pads don't look like they'll go high enough to reach the axle tubes.
It's not that complicated.
You just need a way to support the frame of the car and clear the radius rods so you can slide the rear end out.
All you need are a jack, at least four jack stands and a 4 x 4, which is how I have done it. I also have 10 x 10 x 2 squares cut from a 2 x 10 that I stack under jack stands if needed to raise them.
It doesn't have to be a floor jack/trolley jack. If you don't have a floor jack, you can slide out the rear end on a furniture dolly or slide it on a piece of wood or cardboard.
If you have mechanical aptitude, you can figure it out.
What is the best, correct, non-original formula, color and gloss black paint to use when re-painting the differential?
A LOT of T's have had different year parts added and removed over the years.
Not real surprising if it has an earlier rear end under it. They will interchange.
The earlier T differentials are more desirable than the later 17-25 style.
You could find the later correct style differential for your car and sell your earlier one to make some extra cash for you car. It will bring more than the more common later ones.
Yours probably will need a complete rebuild like most T differentials do.
So I have some ramps, put the jack stands on top of the ramps, bought a 7 foot 4 x 4 and here we are. Enough for today. I should have the pumpkin out and open soon.
Really not crazy about those ramps but it should work for what your doing. I would trim that 4x4 post down, before you accidentally run into it.
Loosen up (but do not fully remove), the nuts holding the rear shackle perch to the backing plate (leave the nut on about 4-5 threads). On one side, stick a piece of 2x4 under the spring eye and axle housing and jack the rear up to take the weight off enough to get the shackle out. Then the other side should be easy to do. This way you don't need a spring spreader. Then you can take the spring out separately or just leave it in depending what your doing.
Curious and curioser,
The pumpkin is down, out, and open. I found a lot of castle nuts with no cotter pins on the rear shackles and backing plates as well as a loose brake shoe bolt. As seen before, no brakes shoes on one side. The axle oil looks grey.
The left thrust washer looks ok to me apparently, bronze replacement a little chewed up. It has a steel washer on either side. The right thrust washer I don't know, looks like it isn't there at all? Just 2 steel washers? Shouldn't there be a thrust washer in between? Would that explain the looseness of the axles on either side? I did find what looks like a small ancient remains of a old thrust washer.
Theory: someone went through the differential, forgot or didn't know about the right thrust washer and just put it back together? Thus the shims on both wheels? Anything else I should check while I am in there?
What are the sleeves in the differential bearing replacement video for? How do I know if I already have them? Should I install the neoprene inner washers to prevent leaks or just do modern outer ones?
Actually I think that is an original babbit washer and maybe the other side thrust washer disintegrated. I looked more and found a bunch of what looks like ground up residue in the differential half. Maybe this is all original?
The gray/silver color of the oil is pulverized Babbitt, and that little piece in the last picture is what's left of the missing thrust washer. The sleeves in the axle tubes are the surface on which the Hyatt bearings roll. You know whether you have them by looking. It's likely you'll need new ones. You may also need new bearings. You have to inspect and measure things to find out what's OK and what isn't. I get the impression you're not using the MTFCA axle book. Bad idea. Get it and use it. That will save you a lot of trouble later.
Yes, you want the neoprene inner seals. I use them plus the big felt washers between them and the inner bearings. The outer bearings should get only grease, not oil. With rear axle oil not leaking out, the stock outer felt washers to keep dust out of the grease are adequate.
Now comes the fun part, cleaning everything. Steve is right on with his post. Get the book.
Definitely the newer neoprene seals for the inner. There are pins that correspond to the holes in the washers to hold them, you'll need those too. Check the axle threads for any wear and the keyway very carefully for cracks. If any doubts, replace the axles (personally I would just do it anyways. Also your ring and pinion could have excessive wear if it was run like that with the one thrust washer gone.
Wow so this thing has maybe never been serviced in 100 years?
Proof that I have the book :-) which is not proof that I have read the book :-(
It's not unusual to find a rear axle that hasn't been opened in fifty to a hundred years. There's usually something amiss.
If you install the neoprene inner seals, be sure to check the fit of the new outer axle sleeves. The new sleeves may have to have some material ground off of their inner ends to ensure that the outer ends of the sleeves fit flush with the end of the axle tube.
On my Ebay Ruckstell, one side had to have about 1/16 inch ground back, the other side fit flush without any grinding.
Watching this makes me think I need to go through the rear axle in my 1919 Roadster I built up over 30 years ago!
I bought the chassis years ago from a farmer who claimed it was a low mileage car he stripped down to make a trailer but never did.
Its one of those that's never been opened up.
Maybe I better do it.
Hehehe! Ignacio, it's funny you haven't been scolded already for not having greasy fingerprints on your axle book! ;-)
Study that book my good man! You're two steps ahead of me already and the rear axle job is staring me in the face on two of my T's.
John, yep. it's time.
The rear end on my '18 has 5 miles on it but had been apart 30 years ago. I have axle end play also. It's time for me too.
Dallas, are you seeing this? Didja order parts yet? Couldn't resist ribbing ya'. :-)
Steve, where exactly is that inner felt washer placed? The T2510C. I have MISSED that part in my fiddling... Sheesh Duane, ya' shoulda had the book already...
OR actually LOOKED at the diagrams... Truly, I missed it.
Apparently I WAS just fiddling around and missed a point. It happens to all of us whether we admit it or no. :-)
That's some gooey stuff in that differential. I call it 'babbitt sauce'. Ingredients are 1 part gear oil, many parts pulverized babbitt thrust washer. Mix thoroughly for 100 years. Spread liberally on your tools, clothes, hair, garage floor and enjoy!
Here are the latest pictures after I pressure washed it. I am probably going to try some Castrol Clean-up tomorrow to go all the way. I found the rest of the disintegrated thrust washer in the goo.
The roller bearings measure out to 0.5 inch with my micrometer, the steel washers measure to 3/32 = 0.09 inches. The washer pins look whole. The gear teeth look fine on both the pinion gear and the ring gear, no pitting or breakage that I can see. Except for the babbitt thrust washer disintegration it seems ok inside. I How does it look to an expert?
I am using the sleeve removal tool. The sleeve is not budging so far despite leverage. What should I do?
Be sure you're turning it the right direction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDcmsir6bPU
@Steve per your video I tried clockwise towards the front of the car. I have tried rotating the outer sleeve in both directions without success. The outer sleeves don't seem to have much wear on them. But they also do not have the neoprene inner oil seals either. The outer seals where leaking. Should I take the outer sleeves out and replace them anyway putting the neoprene inner oil seals on?
I don't have a press to replace the inner sleeves.
Yes, you do want those neoprene seals in there. You don't need a press to install sleeves. Just compress them with a hose clamp to get them started and tap them in. Be sure you line them up so the dimple in the sleeve goes into the hole that holds it.
It's possible that the sleeves are not worn since the bearings measure .500". The sleeves can be checked by running a fingernail along the upper surface of the sleeve out to the outer edge. If there is wear the sleeve will be worn out to about a 1/16 to 1/8" of the outer edge where there is no wear, and a step will be present. A slight amount of wear is acceptable. I'm guessing around .010" or so. Others may think otherwise.
I have found that new sleeves are not always perfectly round and can bind the bearing to where it is difficult to get the bearing to easily slide in place. Also the sleeves may not give 100% contact area if not perfectly round. That's why I prefer to use the original sleeves if possible.
The new sleeves should be heat treated and are a darker color versus shiny metal color. There are, or were, non-heat treated shiny ones sold that wear more quickly.
Also there are right side and left side sleeves. They are made that way to keep the slot in the sleeves from being in the loaded area of the axle assembly.
Hope this helps.
Is it ok to reuse outer sleeves after they have been removed if they are not worn out? These don't have an outer wear step that I can feel.
Yes, you can reuse the sleeves if they're still good. You may have noticed that the sleeves are in right hand/left hand versions. Put them back just where they came from. Bottom line, be sure the grease holes in the sleeves line up with the grease holes in the housing.
By the way, everything looks pretty good. Get it cleaner though.
Thanks, 'Babbitt sauce' is remarkably sticky. I cut it with regular motor oil last night and a lot of it oozed off onto my garage floor by this morning. I figure that 100 years of mixing with bearing grease and pulverized babbitt has created sort of a Henry Ford wonder potion that gets on and sticks to everything.
I went ahead and ordered new outer Hyatt bearing sleeves in case I damage the old ones getting them off. I've ordered all the other parts today too so hopefully this will come back together next week.
There are two different qualities of Hyatt sleeves. Get the best!
Use some degreaser. I would use gasoline but I won't recommend that to you for the obvious dangers involved. Kerosene? Parts degreaser from auto supply store? Lacquer thinner?
Per your post Jan 17, 1:33, said the left washer is bronze. Would doubt that.
Drop that thrust washer to the floor from a height, my guess it won't bounce and ring but will shatter apart.
Put new bronze thrusts on both sides.
@Dan, yes I agree. I later compared it to the picture at: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html and found out that it is babbitt and the grey goo inside the differential was 'babbitt sauce'.
See this just posted on how I removed the rear axle outer Hyatt roller bearing sleeves: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/715461.html?1484772890
It is raining in Houston so work was called. Off to Wal-mart for a nested stainless steel stock pot set that might become parts washers. :-)
Ignacio, Besides the bad Babbitt trust washers your rear end parts look like after cleaning, and showing no other problems, they will be good to reuse. Your open bolt driveshaft spool is correct for your 1922 car, some of the other parts I can't tell from the pictures. Do you plan to change out your 1914 type housings and other parts for 1922 parts? Think about this now while everything is apart because you may not want to do this again in a few years to get correct 1922 housings and parts when they are not to hard to find now. Keep up the good work you are doing great.
Ignacio, I went through this process this summer, complete with "Heavy Babbit Sauce".
To clean this goo, I recommend kerosene. It's a strong cleaner but is gentle on metal parts. Also, it does not stink as much and is far less flammable than gasoline.
Like most of the car the shackles are worn. I am figuring out what to do about them.
Some people install bronze bushings for the shackles instead of steel because they'd rather wear out the bushings than the shackles. If you do this, your 22 will want you to drill oil holes in them.
The worn shackle bushings are usually hard to get out. I've always had to split them in half with a hacksaw blade first before being able to punch them out.
See front axle wire in picture, I don't see this in diagrams. Is it non-original? There is another one just like it on the other side. Is this to stabilize worn spring bushings or the radius rods?
You have an early fully tapered front spring (pre 1916) and figure eight shackles (pre 1918).
Considering you have a 1913-14 rear end, I wonder if your frame is also from an earlier car?
@Erik how can I tell if the frame is from an earlier car?
Here is one of the rear shackles close up. What type is it and what do I need to refurbish it? It seems like it is missing an oiler. It has the twist open type oiler. The oil passages where obstructed. I don't think they've been oiled much. Is this shackle shot?
As Erik said, that's a figure eight shackle used before 1918. Yes, it's missing an oiler. You can buy a set of new ones for only $240, but the correct ones for your car cost a lot less.
That aftermarket wire thing looks like it's intended to keep the wishbone from falling off. As long as the wishbone nuts are tight and cottered, you can ditch the wires.
The wishbone is loose at the ball. I wonder if those wire things are radius rod anti-rattlers.
My thrust collar bolts/studs seem odd they have castle nuts on one side. What are the correct one's on Lang's?
So what are these 1913-14 differential housings worth?
@Steve Jelf, My diff had felt washers in it like what you picture here: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/482627.html?1412590856
With the neoprene seals do you still do the big felt washers? If so where does one obtain these and what is the pipe tool you use to drive them in?
The big felt should be available from any of the parts dealers. Lang's part number is 2511F. I used three per side. My driver was just a piece of conduit with a large socket on top to take the pounding. They were a booger to get in. Whether you use the big felts or not, you do want the neoprene seals.
My differential collar studs are 4.5 inches long with castle nuts on one end. I don't see anything like them on Lang's. The closest I could find are these: https://www.modeltford.com/item/2514C.aspx
Is this the correct bolt/stud for the differential collar?
@Steve Jelf when you "...used three on each side. One just outboard of the inner bearing, one midway, and one just inside the neoprene seal." Did you use the conduit to place them into the 3 positions? How long is the conduit pipe? What diameter conduit pipe?
Whoa the front spring perches are shot! That's why it was bottoming out on the front axle.
Yikes! Too late to just install new bushings, better plan on getting a new or good used pair of perches and bushings.
Yep, those are toast. If the hangers are anywhere hear as bad as that, you'll need them too. These are the right ones for your 1924, but you want them is much better shape than this.
Yes my hangers are as bad as pictured as worse. Thanks because I did not know what those where called.
Ignacio, I think in the vendor books they're gonna be called spring shackles.
Looks like you need new spring perch's for sure. Its time to remove the front axle assembly and go through it.
The spring perches are about 35.00 each depending on the vendor. When you do get the front axle redone you will be surprised how much better it will drive and respond.
I gotta say, those perches might be worse than the ones on my Crappy '24. Wow.
Chassis like that around here had been used as a trailer for 40 years after it was a T. They look just like that.
My '24 drives like hell. My "new" '18 drives like a new Ford. What a treat. Rock on.
My universal joint moves about 0.039 inches. The book says it should only be 0.010-0.020 movement. Do I have to take it apart and replace the bearings?
No, replace the whole U-joint. Dave Huson probably has some really nice ones OEM Ford ones for sale.
Mark do you have to drill the rivet like the book says to get it out?
The differential housings are painted. I am no longer tearing down, now building up :-)
My thrust washer pins look ok. How do I know if they need replacing?
Ignacio, Glad to see you are on the upswing of the project. As you can now attest, It is a lot of work to get here, and just about all of us have done it.
Keep up the good work.
Ignatio, regarding the rivet, it is peened on both ends. You will need to remove the peening from one end to be able to drive the rest of the rivet out. Since the end of the rivet is down inside the driveshaft tube casting, you can't easily get a grinder in there, so center punch one end of the rivet and drill it enough to remove the peened end. Then you can try driving the rest of the pin out. Be sure to back up the other side of the U-joint with a socket or something to provide support before you start pounding.
We think that the rear axle had probably been rebuilt at one time but that the differential did not contain the fiber axle disk washer which probably lead to damage inside. The fiber axle disk washer does not appear in the diagram in the MTFCA axle book. The left differential case was damaged by the steel washers riding on the housing shoulders from a sheared pin. So we have to take the axle apart and replace the left differential case.
We were able to extract relatively easily the thrust pin washers with a stud welder and a slide hammer used for body work. Just weld the stud onto the pin, attach the slide hammer, 3 or so hits of the slide hammer and the pin was out. No drilling or easy-outs required.
All the parts are finally here so I think the differential will go back together again tomorrow.
Good day to paint in Houston so me and the boys went at it to clean sand and paint the drive shaft cover and radius rods. It was a lot of work. There was an odd stamp on the drive shaft cover.
Nice find on that maker's/assemblers mark on the drive shaft tube! I sure wish I knew what it meant.
You're still two steps ahead of me Ignacio!
I had company out in the T shed tonight and he brought a cheapo floor jack and jack stands for my upcoming rear axle project.
Good luck man! I am currently in thrust pin replacement hell, plan on punting to a machine shop tomorrow. Hope to have it all back together by this week...
Per the MTFCA diff rebuild video I put 2 felt shims in the axle and it would not turn. One felt shim and it is a little loose about half a millimeter but it turns. The MTFCA DVD says put thinner shims in to get it Goldilocks just right but I do not know where I would get that?
My pinion gear has 3 chips in it see picture. Whoa they are expensive to replace. Should I?
I used steel shims that were made to shim the shocks on motorcycles. I got them from the local yamaha dealer. They had a whole box full of different size shims. I found the right diameter that were all super thin. I stacked like 5 of them in between and it was just perfect. Just a thought... Here is a link to what I'm talking about.
Ignacio, if you want to stick with the fiber shims, just sand down the shims to get the right thickness. The MTFCA rear axle book mentions that one shim is usually not enough and two is too thick, so having to sand down the shims is pretty common. You might want to sand a little off of both shims so that you don't end up with one shim being paper-thin. Do a little at a time and keep checking until you can turn the axles with essentially zero end play.
As Michael mentioned, some folks choose to use other materials (like bronze or steel) for their shims.
Ignacio, See Glen Chaffin's 3/11/17 MTFCA add, he has some good used 11 tooth pinions.
"Have very good used 11 tooth pinion gears. Very little wear, Almost look new. $75.00 ea."
Your pinion doesn't look so good but might get you by. How does the ring gear look ?
Good used ring gears are harder to find and you don't want to risk damaging yours if it is good.
Ignacio, can you post a picture of your ring gear? If it has damage like the pinion, you might be better off buying a new ring and pinion, or, if that is too expensive, a matched, lightly used ring and pinion from Glen.
I know it seems like all we do is try to get you to spend more money, but it's cheap insurance compared to the pain of having to tear down the rear axle again when questionable parts cause problems.
Here it is. Three teeth have wear marks. I am sanding the felt disks down on a belt sander right now down to 0.116 of an inch and it still won't turn when all the way tight. These felt disks are durable.
Threads like this are invaluable.
I'll be tearing my axle down later this year.
From what I can see, your ring gear looks OK. If it was me and I was on a tight budget, I would buy one of Glen Chaffin's lightly used pinion gears and use it with your ring gear. Take a hand honing stone and LIGHTLY dress off any burrs or high spots on the teeth of both gears so that they will play nicely together.
Yes, those fiber washers are tough! Be patient and keep sanding and fit checking.
Please explain what "felt discs" you're referring to.
I can't think of any felt discs that are needed here. Do you mean the quarter sized fiber disc that goes between the two axle shafts, inside the differential?
I've been assuming that's what he means, the fiber disc(s) that fit between the axle shafts.
"These felt disks are durable."...
Holy Moley are they ever! I swear the brass would be about as hard as these fiber disks. Yikes, I used NEW 60 grit paper on a nice flat shelf in the T shed. 2 hours later I had a fit I was happy with, shorter fingernails and wore out the darned 3M sand paper. :-)
Aha! You're way over the hundred thousand mark with your discs to get a fit betwixt (between) the shafts too! Interesting.
Aww man, IF you got the 300 some bucks, get the new gear set. So far I'm super glad I did.
Check really is in the mail to Chaffin's for the used good pinion gear. The wear on the ring gear is really minimal so I think I am just going to keep it.
I think the fiber disks are made of Kryptonite.
Yep! I thought my poor hand was gonna fall off tonight. Sand, sand, sand, sand, sand and then sand some more. Oop? Gone too far? Dang it. Nah, it's OK.
That's cool about the gears.
Mine were too far gone.
I wanna drive your T when it's ready. And rip on it. :-) Spring is coming for me up here. So I can rip on my Crappy Lizzhe!
I can't wait until you're out and about with it again!
Such fun coming! And teaching a son? Ultra cool.
Fibre axle washer width begins at 0.08. A fit for my axle was 2 washers sanded down to 0.099 so I had to and through 0.061 of 2 washers to get 0.099. The axle no longer has play and it rolls with some resistance if I turn it by hand.
Oh, no. Problem. My Woodruff key in one axle side is loose. It shifts back and forth. I don't know if it is the key or the key way. How do I fix this? it looks like the gear is held in with a snap ring on the other side? The other axle side Woodruff key is tight.
Looks like this is the key for it.
I wonder how to take the diff lock rings off?
Ignacio, you have to press the gear slightly rearward to remove the lock rings , then once installed, they need to be pressed forward to lock them in place.
Ignacio, Well you are getting there one part at a time. I would not use a axle with a loose diff gear. Most likely it is the axle key way that is worn, and that is what it looks like in your picture, but pictures can be misleading. You will need a press to remove the gear. See the Ford repair manual for help. In general it is a two step process, first press gear down to remove lock rings from axel grove then back the other way to remove gear from axle. If it is the key way you will need another axle so perhaps someone in your T club can sell you a good axle with a good gear and you won't need to use a press. You are doing fine, keep up the good work.
To remove the rear axle gears, see page 144, pars 574 in the Ford Service Manual. That is in Chapter XV Overhauling the Rear Axle. Starts on page 141. That book will tell you all you need to know about a Model T. Dan
Scored a used axle from Space City T's member Clint Alred!
Ignacio, by the time you finish this, you will be the local expert! Keep up the good work.
Thanks Mark! It is a quest. :-) When I received the axle from Clint I immediately identified the housing as a big drum 1927. I am now a T zombie :-)
Hey the axle is back together tight and good. Finally! Mine originally had cotters on the 3 castle nut topped bolts that hold the halves together, see above. The axle donor differential had aircraft wire on the 3 castle nuts. Which one to do? Cotters or aircraft wire on the 3 castle nuts? Clearly it is wire on the ring gear bolts.
I'm watching closely as I have the same questions yet I think I know which direction we'll be pulled. :-)
Wire, properly done...
There were two designs over the years. Early cars had studs in one differential half, and for those all three nuts should be wired together. Later differentials were held together with three separate bolts, and those should have cotters. So it depends on what you have in there
I have bolts so cotters it is.
Did the roller thrust bearings that replaced the bronze dissapear or found to be not durable?
Some folks like them and still use them. I believe there have been incidents of them coming apart and distributing their hard rollers into the gears.
Mostly, they're just not needed. An answer to a non-problem.
The roller bearing is expensive and many consider it a superfluous complication adding to the potential for failure. I have no experience with it, but I've read many negative forum comments along those lines. I assume that you can't make it thinner to fit, like the bronze washers, and that it requires the extra expense of shims.
First test fit. Early drive shaft housing arrives hopefully Sunday. I have a Fun Projects spool. This was obviously the inspiration for Star Wars Twin Ion Engine(TIE) fighter.
Original Hyatt bearings definitely look different than new ones. Do the new ones perform as well as the old ones?
I would not use the solid roller type anywhere - because I once did so.....
You MIGHT use them at the inner half shaft locations but NOT for the pinion or half shaft outers.
If you search this Forum, you will find that I am not alone in this view.
Check with Dave Huson, Bob Bergstadt, Chaffin's, or one of the other suppliers, they often have good used original Hyatt bearings.
It is back together again.
Two months later:
Don't use them on inners either. They ruined both of my rear axles, I was unaware that they were in the rear end that I had. They had cut a deep groove in the axle end near the differential case on BOTH axles. This was because the inner cage hole is not large enough and with only slight wear the thing then sits on the axle and starts to cut a nice groove around the perimeter of the axle.
The solid roller things do NOT work on either end of the axle nor as a pinion bearing. They are just bad news for anything except perhaps a museum car without a motor.
It is poised for ascent. My hogshead flange is rotated so that the bolt holes no longer line up. How do I rotate it back?
Looks like the ball cap is rotated out of position. You should be able to turn it by hand to line up the holes.
Make sure that the oil hole for the 4th main is to the top or side and not straight down.
The bolts that came with the car for the ball cap do not seem to be going back in easily. See picture of the bolts. It had 2 bolts and nuts on the top 2 holes and two 24 thread bolts for the bottom 2 holes. If there were threads on the top they are gone now. The bolts don't look original and they are not threading easily on the bottom that have threads. I have high anxiety at this point of stripping them out. What should I do?
Is there a sidedness to the ball cap or are all the holes equidistant?
Ignacio, the top two holes aren't threaded, so just replace those stripped nuts and bolts you have pictured. As far as the bottom two, run the proper size tap into it to clean the threads, and then see how it feels running the bolts in.
Get the right ones.
The top holes are unthreaded and take the same bolts and castle nuts as the hogshead and oil pan.
The bottom holes are threaded and take the same #3371 cap screws as the mag ring and the driven plate. As you can see, they're wired. U-joint grease: too much is better than not enough.
Bolts_nuts_threaded_items.pdf (127.8 k)
See what Bob said about the oil hole. Of course the piece behind the U-joint housing should be turned to have the big grease cup on top.
Ignacio, on a side note, since you have it this far apart it might be a good idea to pull the ballcap/4th main and see how the Babbitt looks.
It might be the stress of the u-joint pulling it down. I am going to try relieving some of that stress and see if I can thread these. Is a #3371 the same as what holds a ring gear on? If so I might have two from a half axle donated to me by club member Clint Allred.
@John, oops too late. Also we are just trying to get it safely running again, I might do a total engine redo in the future but not now.
No, ring gear bolts are different. See the PDF above.
"Make sure that the oil hole for the 4th main is to the top or side and not straight down."
Uh-oh, the whole differential is already back on. I have a 25% chance of being wrong?
This one 3252 I think: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3252.aspx
I can still rotate the 4th main but can no longer look inside of it. Is there a way of knowing if it is on with the oil hole down without seeing it?
Unless you marked it before installing,..no. I would also put it on top, not on the side.
3252 = 3323 = 3371.
If you can rotate it that means it's not held by any RTV or other sealant. Even if the hole happens to be up, the term major oil leak will be an understatement. You won't like it, but I bet you can guess what you need to do.
You may be able to see the oil hole by removing the inspection cover on the hogs head. I would do as John said and put the hole at the top. I have heard of others putting the hole to the side but I wouldn't. But like Steve said you need to seal it with RTV. If you are going to take it back apart I would also check the condition of the babbitt in the 4th main.
Brake levers up and actuator rods over the radius rod or brake levers down and rods under?
Brake levers up and actuator rods go over the radius rods.
I bought some 3/8 13/16 16 thread bolts today at the hardware store while waiting on some new 3252's. I tried threading them in and they still aren't going on. I don't know what to do now, maybe tap it?
Here is one finish line pictured. It isn't running yet but the kids had fun posing on it.
Wrong size! 3/8-16 is coarse thread. The correct #3371 is 3/8-24, fine thread. The fasteners PDF has it wrong for all three part numbers, 3252, 3323, and 3371!
Ignacio, did you straighten out the problem you posted last night with your ballcap and gasket?...How did it go?
John right now I think I am going to just try it and see if it leaks. If it leaks then I will take apart the rear end again or rotate it some more. I actually can rotate as needed because I didn't put a new gasket in, it is the old oil soaked gasket that rotates fairly easily gasket and ball cap by tapping a punch against one of the ears of the ball cap.
Thanks for the correction Steve, I am being careful at this stage because I would rather not damage it at this point. I will go back to the hardware store tomorrow and get the 24 thread.
Good to see it back on all four. Roadworthy soon. Looks like you wont have to ride alone.
Drive safe and often
How's my 4th main bell cap babbit look?
Simple answer, Stuffed!
Ignacio, maybe you ought to start a new thread for each of your questions. This has been running for almost three months now. Some of the guys on here are on dial up, I'm sure it takes forever to load this thread. There is a ton of information on here, you may be missing some with this long thread and others may be missing some to. Don't forget that each thread may have a lot of lurkers and even members that watch them, even though they don't comment. I'm one of them. Just a heads up. I am very impressed with your progress! JMHO Dave
I forgot to say that some of the information that has been posted may have been missed because of the original title. Dave
This journey is nearly at its end so I will end with the beginning. How's my hub (backing plate) look now? :-)
Better! If there is room, turn that front spring around to match the rear, supposedly that will help keep it from popping off of the brake shoe hooks.
To answer your question: Your 4th main babbitt looks terribly worn out.
Measure your output shaft diameter and order one of these to fit: