Experienced T folks: Your opinion on Model T cooling?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Experienced T folks: Your opinion on Model T cooling?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 11:58 am:

The gentleman who posted the following on Facebook says I should do some reading before I contradict him. What you you think?

"The model T was designed to circulate water thru a thermo-syphon system. The water HAS TO BOIL and shove water into the upper radiator tank ... As this is happening it sucks cooled water from the bottom of the radiator into the engine block to start the process over again !!!
Since the cooling system is not pressurized, the overflow / vent tube has to stay open. Some guys install a puke jug to catch the steam and water.
If I see a model T that isn't steaming then I get concerned !!!
Make sure you don't run your spark retarded.
Make sure your fan and fan belt are in good condition.
Don't worry about it steaming ....It's natural circulation !!!
By the way ...I always fill my radiator to the top ....As it circulates it will shove some water out until it finds its level !!!
One last note ....If you run anti-freeze it can keep your engine from boiling thus hurting the cooling efficiency ....When I drove from New York City to Seattle Washington in 1984 I used plain water ....No water pump ....No problems !!!!
".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

Don't waste your time with him, you'll never change his mind anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 12:08 pm:

He has a few problems in his theory.....water doesn’t have to boil for thermo-siphon to work and anti freeze will not stop thermo-siphon but will stop your block from breaking when the water freezes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 12:13 pm:

I bet he was busy keeping his radiator filled to the top on that cross-country drive! That's why he's on Facebook and not the forum, he knows too much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 12:44 pm:

To answer your question directly, don't contradict him! The physics of the process is pretty straight forward, but some folks are convinced that every phenomenon (which can be explained by a simple equation) needs an "FM" variable added! My recommendation is to do what you're doing and leave it at that.

I remember when I was a kid, my dad and I built a toy thermosyphon boat with a loop of copper tubing and a candle. If the tube got too hot and boiled the water, hot water (steam) would spit out the tube and the boat wouldn't move. If the water was just right, hot but not boiling, the boat moved nicely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 01:50 pm:

I think he doesn't understand the science of heat transfer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 01:56 pm:

The main reason boiling coolant is a bad thing.

Coolant circulating in the cooling system needs to and under normal conditions does have full contact with the passages in the block and head and the radiator tubes so the coolant can actually do its job of removing heat from the block, move into the radiator whereupon the heat is removed from the coolant and then move back into the block, etc.

Once it is boiling, there are bubbles in the coolant so you don't have full contact on all surfaces so the coolant cannot do an efficient job of removing heat from the block and the radiator cannot do an efficient job of removing the heat from the coolant. Even worse, steaming coolant basically has very little contact.

Hope this makes sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 02:01 pm:

Hmm. Says he drove a T cross country, apparently he made it on steam power? All I know is if your horse is sweating and heaving, or your Model T is boiling, you back off the load and let 'em blow. I guess it proves "any dope can drive a Model T" ;- )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 02:18 pm:

An expert is someone who can state incorrect information with great authority.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 02:25 pm:

I always understood that an expert was anyone more than 50 miles from home carrying a tray of slides. In these days of PowerPoint presentations, that's probably been superseded.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 02:26 pm:

It's amusing to see how a thesis can develop, based on one wrong assumption, and never seem to correct itself or even show itself to be wrong.

His first sentence is correct.

His second sentence, in which he states his basic thesis, is wrong. And he even capitalizes the wrong assumption!

It's all down hill from there.

When he drove across the country, filling his radiator to the top at every opportunity, which probably means using locally available water, I can't help thinking of the minerals and crud that were left behind as the water boiled out. It's a wonder he made it at all! Aside from his basic misconception about the need for boiling, he totally missed the important difference between "boiling" and "puking." If his engine puked out the extra water, that's OK, but to the extent that it boiled and made steam, he progressively coated the insides of his cooling system with insulation!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 02:30 pm:

When in doubt, read the manual:

How is the Engine cooled? Answer No. 35

The heat generated by the constant explosions in the engine would soon overheat and ruin the engine, were it not cooled by some artificial means. The Ford engine is cooled by the circulation of water in jackets around the cylinders. The heat is extracted from the water by its passing through the thin metal tubing of the radiator---to which are attached scientifically worked out fins, which assist in the rapid radiation of the heat. The fan, just back of the radiator, sucks the air around the tubing- around which the air is also driven by the forward movement of the car. The belt should be inspected frequently and tightened when necessary---not too tight, however---by means of the adjusting screw in the fan bracket. Take up the slack till the fan starts to bind when turned by hand.

How does the Water circulate? Answer No. 36

The cooling apparatus of the Ford car is known as the Thermo-siphon system. It acts on the principle that hot water seeks a higher level than cold water---consequently when the water reaches a certain heat, approximately 180 degrees Fahrenheit, circulation commences and the water flows from the lower radiator outlet pipe up through the water jackets, into the upper radiator water tank, and down through the tubes to the lower tank, to repeat the process.

What are the causes of Overheating? Answer No. 37

(1) Carbonized cylinders; (2) too much driving on low speed; (3) spark retarded too far; (4) poor ignition; (5) not enough or poor grade oil; (6) racing motor; (7) clogged muffler; (8) improper carburetor adjustment; (9) fan not working properly on account of broken or slipping belt; (10) improper circulation of water due to clogged or jammed radiator tubes, leaky connections or low water.

What should be done when the Radiator overheats? Answer No. 38

Keep the radiator full. Don't get alarmed if it boils occasionally---especially in driving through mud and deep sand or up long hills in extremely warm weather. Remember that the engine develops the greatest efficiency when the water is heated nearly to the boiling point. But if there is persistent overheating when the motor is working under ordinary conditions---find the cause of the trouble and remedy it. The chances are that the difficulty lies in improper driving or carbonized cylinders. Perhaps twisting the fan blades at a greater angle to produce more suction may bring desired results. By reference to the proper division of this book each of the causes which contribute to an overheated radiator is treated and remedies suggested. No trouble can result from the filling of a heated radiator with cold water---providing the water system is not entirely empty---in which case the motor should be allowed to cool before the cold water is introduced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 03:07 pm:

He starts out with a complete misunderstanding of thermodynamics:

"The water HAS TO BOIL and shove water into the upper radiator tank"

Once he figures out that is simply false the rest will fall into place for him. If he can't figure that out then don't waste any further time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 03:52 pm:

I suspect this guy also prefers to make his coffee with a percolator. That seems to be what informs his understanding of cooling systems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:03 pm:

Thermo-syphon works because the density of water changes with temperature.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:15 pm:

My Papaw used to say that an ExPert is just a former Pert.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Schrepfer on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:29 pm:

Would not have ocean currents if warm water did't rise and cold water didn't descend


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:35 pm:

Definition of expert as my old shop teacher often said, x is a has been, spurt is a drip under pressure. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:41 pm:

I'll go a step further. The ONLY reason warm water rises is because cooler water, being more dense, FALLS to the bottom due to gravity. The warmer water is merely displaced by the cooler water. The only place it has to go is up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:49 pm:

It's nothing but a water heater, they work exactly the same way, the water is heated in the block and head and expands or gets lighter so flows up and through the radiator where the heat is removed and the water cooled and it is now denser and flows down as Ron said.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 05:58 pm:

Don, I am an expert!!!
Hasbeen drip under pressure!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 06:10 pm:

I love my water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 06:23 pm:

Glad you do Jerry, we wouldn't want all those pumps to go Rodney Dangerfield on us. They do make pretty good wheel chocks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 06:27 pm:

And, what's wrong with percolator coffee ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Thursday, January 19, 2017 - 07:27 pm:

Well, let's face it. Not everyone had physics in high school, and many of us who had it can't remember that far back anyways. I'd just smile and walk away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Friday, January 20, 2017 - 12:05 pm:

People think that for whatever reason. My uncle has a Farmall tractor that is thermosyphon. He says that when the water starts boiling that makes it circulate. I've got to where I just let people believe what they want unless it's a safety issue. I don't mind somebody showing me I'm wrong if I am but I've found some people get hostile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Friday, January 20, 2017 - 12:16 pm:

Steve,

Nothing wrong with perked coffee. Unlike a model T cooling system, a percolator does depend on the water being boiled to function though, No boiling, no coffee.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis R on Friday, January 20, 2017 - 02:49 pm:

Definition of "Expert" as explained to me by my grandfather-
Ex- Used in math to state the unknown
Spurt- Farm lingo, a drip under pressure

Expert- "An unknown drip under pressure"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Friday, January 20, 2017 - 11:04 pm:

And here we have not the problem with a theory or what the book says but a problem with SCHOOLING.

I knew but can remember in elementry school running a sciene experiment dealing with basic hot and cold water. Its simple education to add red dye to hot water and blue dye to cole water. Combine the two and you will clearly see the blue settle to the bottom and the red on top.

There is not boiling, bubbles, or steam involved.

This is a clear case of not being taught basics in school.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Friday, January 20, 2017 - 11:07 pm:

Of course as a response I would ask him what the boiling temp of water is at the top of a pot vs the bottom of the pot when it is boiling. Also one might ask him what happens to water when it gets to 213 at sea level.


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