Hi, so my spindle bolts http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/481388.jpg have side to side play in them especially on the nut side of the spindle bolt. No bushings that I can see. I look at Lang's and they have this new set: https://www.modeltford.com/item/2710SB.aspx that may require a reamer: https://www.modeltford.com/item/2713RM.aspx
and maybe the alignment tool too: https://www.modeltford.com/item/2713RMT.aspx
Wow, getting pricey with the tools. Any alternatives?
Also my spindle connecting rod bolt is missing the flip of the flip top oiler. Can the flip top oiler be replaced or do I have to replace the bolt? The spindle connecting rod bolt does not seem loose.
The oiler can easily be replaced.
The splindles and rest of the front end is not the place to be cheap! You can cut corners in a lot of places, but unless you are just going to static display your car, the front end needs to be restored right for safety reasons.
Play in the bottom end of the bolts is most likely due to the holes being "wallered out". One fix is to fill, redrill, and tap the holes. It may be cheaper and easier to get a better axle.
Sounds like a job for the "Stevens Front Axle"
For more info, PM me. Dan
Sounds like a job for the "Stevens Front Axle Tool"
For more info, PM me. Dan
Oh, now that is funny. Microsoft (onedrive) won't play on Windows Explorer without Flash Player. Can't see the video since I don't turn Flash on for everybody. I guess M$ gave up on HTML5.
I agree with Steve Jelf and Dan. Remove your spindle, put only the spindle bolt back into the "yoke" of the axle all the way, and see if that bolt moves any. It should NOT. If it does, then as Steve Jelf said, it needs to be "Steven'ed" as I call it. I was lucky, I can't afford the tooling, but I have a very capable fella only hour and a half away that did mine for my '13. Excellent results. Got one more I'm gonna have him do eventually.
Per your spindle bushings, I do NOT recommend reaming them...take them and your spindle bolt to a machine shop and have the bushings HONED to fit the bolt. It'll last longer. Been doing that since my first T 5 years ago and no problem with em after many miles.
@Tim it moves. :-( I am not where I can look at my spindles right now. Did the spindles all originally come with bushings?
Ignacio, The best way to see how much wear is in you front end is to jack up the front axle of the car and put it on some jack stands.
By doing this all the weight is off the front end. Slowly turn the steering wheel side to side and see how slack and wear you will find in the spindles, bushings, tie rod ends and etc.
I would venture to guess the front end needs the bushings replaced. This is one area where wear is usually found.
You'll be glad you did it in the long run.
Ignacio: The spindles have bushings from the factory. The Axle does not. The Stevens Tool installs bushings in the axle, saving worn out axles. Can be done on the car. Watch the video and see my ad on the ad page from the tooling. Dan
@John, Yes it is up on jack stands, 1 wheel off. The other wheel about to come off for refurbishing.
It is all loose except for the spindle connecting bolts (which is not the Spindle mount bolts). They are ok.
The drag links are loose. I have been told you can grind the faces to make them fit or put a pre-1984 all copper Penny to shim it. I am not sure if it is the socket or the ball part or both that is worn.
Given some of the other things you've found on this car, I suspect the whole front end will need new bushings. That's springs and perches, spindles, and maybe steering bracket. A lot of that is covered in the MTFCA axle book.
You need to join the SpaceCity T's. Your axle can most likely be repaired with a helicoil insert. I think someone in that Model T club can help you and get you back on the road without buying several expensive tools.
Before pressing the new bushings into your spindles, measure the ID of the hole in the spindle and the OD of the new bushings. The new bushings should only be .001 to .003 larger than the ID, otherwise you might crack you spindles pressing them in! The OD can be easily turned down on a lathe.
Ignacio...I agree with Steve's most recent post. Just go through the entire steering system ( I did on my '20 and was glad, as it needed it) and you'll be in great shape. Not hard work. When you do don't overlook the pitman arm. The ball on the end will wear, as does the keyway onto the shaft. It's often overlooked, and often the culprit to a lot of wobble and/or steering play.
See the front spring perch pictures on this thread they are totally shot!
Saw them earlier Ignacio! Wow, it's a wonder they didn't completely collapse and cause an accident. I think if I were you, and I have a hunch you're already making the plans, this entire front end needs repaired/replaced! Money money money!
All I will say on the subject is.. When I got my "T" I had to do a lot of work on it... and I own a lot of different types of reamers. Being that my background is in Heavy truck and equipment repair I naturally grabbed mine when doing a job on the steering axle.
Now for the AND... and have been driving with too much Camber ever since... so tire wear is a problem. ( I have just been to lazy to bend/form the axle... If i have to do it again and must use a reamer, it will be after I set it on what I know is the true plain for Camber. So be careful and take no shortcuts with the steering axle.
My pre-1918 front leaf springs the top leaf 1/3 is missing. This is apparently common and the top leaf is said to be un-obtainium.
I have nearly every part I need to redo the entire front end except for the new perches just ordered. The plan is to clean all the parts and paint them this weekend. I have a 'Stevens tool friend' who is hopefully going to pay me a visit next week. :-)
Here is a different route to find the video of Dan demonstrating the Stevens Fixture Tool for those unable to view the previous link
Front suspension and steering is completely off the car. Wheels have been paint stripped and pressure washed.
There were peculiar homemade radius rod support somethings of unknown age made with piston rod end cap and threaded wire/rod wrapped around the radius rods and held in place with square nuts.
Everything is going to get cleaned painted replaced or tightened this week.
Looks like those wheels all need new wood. I would not drive on them.
Ignacio, Before you rebuild your front axle with the Stevens Tool make sure that you remove the old worn out perches. Sometimes they can be hard to get out of a old axle and your worn out perches have to be replaced. Also I agree with other posts that the wood in your wheels looks bad and needs to be replaced.
Ignatio, those things around the perches and having the rod caps on the wishbone have no purpose unless the seat in the wishbone eye in which the tapered perch nut is badly worn. This will allow the nut to bottom out on the thread without jamming the wishbone tight against the underside of the axle. Hence the need for the anti rattle device.
You need to check that the wishbone eye is not worn. Otherwise, the ball end looks quite good.
Allan from down under.
According to this diagram the wishbone was mounted incorrectly on the bottom of the axle. Is that the case? The picture above is my front axle as it came off the car. The wishbone is attached below the axle not above it as the diagram shows. Which is correct?
Now this diagram shows it under:
Check the text on the diagrams, Ignacio
The first is a special European only version that is nearly never seen in USA, so your below the axle configuration is correct for late 1919 to 27 in USA and Canada. But check so the perch nut holds the wishbone tight as others have said, driving with loose nuts may have wallowed it out.
Also: Be sure the Perch nuts are made Correct. Should be counter bored so they do NOT bottom out on the threads before tight. Some repro nuts were not made right. Dan
Here is the new bushings pressed in to the spindle. How do you get new spindle bolts in? They stop at the top of the threads. I whacked it a little with a rubber hammer but don't want to damage it.
Well, you'll need an expensive one time use (for many) reamer for that job.. https://www.modeltford.com/item/2713RM.aspx
If you're good at filing straight & square, you may fit the spindles to the axle by filing the bottom bushing, but for a top notch job you would need something like this too: https://www.modeltford.com/item/2713T.aspx
So it's worth a lot to have a club or at least a few T:ers nearby to be able to loan or share costs for seldom used tools.
If nobody in the local club has the reamer, take the spindles and bolts to a good machine shop.
Last time I checked, Bob Bergstadt had a box of NOS large flip top oilers.
Hey, I bought a set of reamers from Harbor freight. Now that I have it I am using it in other places too. Spindle is in. I had to use a flat file on the axle and brass bushing to get it in. It is all snug tight fit now!
Here is the Harbor Freight reamer set. Comes in a nice wood box.
Those expandable reamers will do you no good for spindles, unless you have a pilot to go with it.
They are fine for the perches, and spindle arms.
What Larry means is that the upper and lower bushings aren't exactly in line when reamed one at the time with a standard reamer. The special reamer from the vendors is long enough to be piloted by one bushing while reaming the other, making them absolutely concentric.
Your spindles will work just as fine initially, but the job may not last as long as with the special reamer?
I avoided the cost of the special reamer by fitting the bushings to the spindle bolts while they were still loose, then reducing the outer diameter of the bushings until they were a slip fit in the spindle body & tested to fit in the axle, then lastly I glued them in place with epoxy while guided by slightly oiled spindle bolts, everything in place in the axle.
There are always several ways to do it, everyones mileage may differ
Roger - Hmmmm,...... "glued them in place with epoxy". Factory installed bushings were of course, by design, an interference fit. As such, there is very little chance (if any) that the factory press fit bushings would ever become loose in the axle. Do you feel that turning the bushings down to a "slip fit" in the axle, and glueing them in place with epoxy will prove to be as "permanent" as a press fit?
I'm not trying to be argumentative or critical here, as I have come to realize that modern chemistry has produced some very dependable bonding and adhesive materials. In fact, modern production methods of the largest auto manufacturers are using adhesives and such in all kinds of applications, where previously, it was thought by the engineers that only welding or "interference fit" would suffice. Anyway,....just wondered if you thought your "glueing" method would just be "okay for awhile", or as permanent as a "press fit",.......harold
Harold - it's a time tried method I've learned here at the forum, and it's not like the bushings would be able to do anything dangerous, should they ever become loose - they would just be like when they were worn before the fix.
It's a method that can be used in other areas on the car, saving the cost for other special tools, like the front bushing in the driveshaft tube and even the rear cam shaft bushing, though I haven't tried that one myself (yet)
Cleanliness is important, of course.
Thanks Roger. Being a long-time subscriber of this forum, I have come to respect your forum posts as well as your skill,knowledge and experience. I'd be the first to admit that I'm an' ol' geezer that's pretty "stuck in his ways", but I do feel that I'm also broad minded enough to know that many of my "old ways" have become "obsolete", due to things like modern chemistry, modern plastics, and modern, computer aided engineering!
For example, the first quarter inch electric drill that I saw that was made basically out of plastic,.... I thought,.... what a piece of junk! Well, took me quite a few years to realize that modern plastics are nothing short of fantastic! Can't tell you how many quarter inch electric drills with die cast metal housings I broke, years ago, but I've NEVER broken a plastic one!
Thanks again Roger,.....harold
Roger - This discussion is a long way from Ignacio's original subject/question, however, I think the forum guys have pretty well answered him. In the meantime, our discussion here has served to remind me of another surprising "experience" that I had. I'll TRY not to make a long story out of this, but,.... not easy for me:
Back in the '70's in Montana, I bought an old, used Dodge crew cab pickup that was a pretty good truck. I had taken it to a local mechanic that had an excellent reputation, for some kind of repair, and I can't quite remember what,.... I think maybe brake work or something. Anyway, for some reason, he found that the solid front axle in that truck had been worked on previously, and it actually had some type of plastic spindle bushings in it. This old but very skilled mechanic absolutely insisted that those "no good" plastic bushings had to be replaced with good, original type bronze (or whatever metal they were) bushings. He would not listen to me when I explained that I had been driving that used truck for several years, and that it handled well, steered well, did not wear out front tires, had no alignment problems, and as far as I was concerned, the steering, suspension, etc, etc, was perfect and would he just please leave the spindle bushings and king pins alone! He would not listen, and replaced the plastic bushings with original equipment metal bushings anyway, and did not charge me anything for that part of his work. That's what an honest and conscientious man that mechanic was. But my point here is, even back in the '70's, there was some plastic stuff that was really pretty darn good!
Dang! Should have known that I couldn't make a "short story" our of that! Sorry,...... harold
The front axle and steering gear are all back together. New spindle bushings, un-broken spring, new perches, new shackles, new axle (mine was bent and threads gone), new tie rod bolts and bushings. Cleaned and repainted, everything snug.
Great work! You're going to notice quite a bit of difference in the way your T rides, not to mention steers.
With the toe in set at between 3/16" to 1/4", it'll drive just fine.
Good job, Ignacio!
I've posted this before, but I'll do it again,
Many of the reproduction spindle bushings are large OD and will split perfectly good spindles if pressed in as found. Yes, it's an interference fit, but needs to only be a few thousands, not .010! measure before pressing, and if need be, get a friend with a lathe to make them the right OD.
As for reaming, I had a local machine shop with a Sunnen Hone that was long enough to do both bushings at once hone mine to fit my pins. SMOOOOOTH!
Chucked them into my drill press and sanded them some before installing. Overdid it on 2 and had to re-order and do it again. One side was tight and had to be sanded a fair amount. The other side not much.
Can the early spindle bolts be drilled out to accept the flip top oiler, instead of the threaded oiler.
I have a new pair of those that I would like to use on a later car.
You'll probably find someone who would trade you straight across, last I knew the threaded ones were a little harder to find.