Well, I placed the call today but the entire facility is closed. All office personnel are in some sort of training meeting all day. No one is available until after 9:30 tomorrow morning. I'll try then.
It's a team building exercise. They're all out scouring the museum floor, trying to find out what a Model T Ford is.
As per my p.m., several of the Early Ford Registry and some HCCA members and directors are concerned. I'll keep you posted. Jerry, are you and Overland club member? (I was thinking you have an Overland?)
Not that this has anything to do with it, but I subscribe to the HF mailings, and the short of it is, looks like they either have, or will be, renaming the "Henry Ford" to the "Henry Ford Museum of American Innovation". That's a mouthful! So perhaps the whole place is undergoing a complete overhaul.
Working on innovative ways to scam participants and tell them a turd sandwich tastes delicious !
You would think they have better things to do than lengthen a simplistic and landmark name (The Henry Ford) to one that no one will remember. Thanks for your efforts Marty.
Same here Tim! I put our gripe on the face book but i have no idea if it will be read or understood?? Bud.
Tim: I saw that too and wondered about it.
Rick: thank you for the thank you.
I'll post here after I talk to them.
Hey, Rob, I posted on the HCCA forum asking if anyone got the letter, is there an concern about the changes, etc. But, although some people read it, no one replied! I'm just looking for a consensus/a feeling for what others are thinking besides the T club.
I don't believe that forum had much activity, although HCCA has a large membership. I'll call Carl Pate. I believe he was writing a letter, and he has been a participant at OCF for several years.
Gil, if your following, aren't you a contributor to HCCA, the magazine and member?
Marty, I will try to get a idea of how many other people with other makes of cars besides us will not be attending.
Marty, I have a question, and maybe you can find this out when you call. Like I said in the past thread we do not camp in the Henry Ford lot either weekend, but we know people who do. My question is, are they going to allow the military vehicle guys camp inside the village still on both weekends? I know in years past some of those guys camped in there in vintage tents and such. Also at Motor Muster they have had people bring vintage motor homes and enter them in the show and they camped in them inside the village. Is this no longer going to be allowed in both cases? If they still let those folks camp on the property, its not really fair to the old car people that they can no longer stay on the premises, but they can. Just a though here.
Definition of "tact" . . .
telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they actually look forward to the trip.
Definition of "experience."
That's what you get when you were expecting something else.
Having read the letter I received I have one conclusion...The Old Car Festival as we know it is gone. Being a "Valued Participant" the new rules tell me I'm no longer needed or wanted to be included. I will withdraw and cooperate with their request. But, I do feel a bit bitter because the true problem is their lack of willingness to apply a coordinated effort to handle the parking for such a large crowd. The year before last they opened the gates and began to guide the trailers and motorhomes where they wanted them. The first row was done and it was if they dropped their arms and walked away leaving everyone else to find their own way. The result was many were blocked in and the far end of the parking lot was crammed while the other half was wide open and stayed wide open for the entire weekend. I don't buy into this bull that there isn't enough parking space because there defiantly is. It requires some effort on their part to organize in a orderly fashion to even out the lot. So I conclude they are not willing to put out the required effort and would rather kill the popularity of the event. It really is a shame in my opinion. Half of the fun was the social gathering in the parking lot before and after the show.
Regarding the name change: A place on Cape Cod used to be called "Heritage Plantations" They had massive rhodadendrons, trees, and many other flowers and such all over a 10-20 acre site, with a replica of an octagon shaker barn, filled with old cars. The board of directors changed the name recently to "Heritage Museum" so as not to offend anyone. I think they got rid of the amazing gun collection as being "too dark" "no longer appropriate"
I checked the HCCA forum this morning and there were some replies. It seems the same feelings exist there as here, with a lack of interest in attending. You can visit the forum and see the replies.
Michael, thank you and please let me know. Also, good questions about camping. I'll see what I can find out, although I suspect the answer will be that the military folks and the period campers are part of the show.
Don, Trailer and camper parking is an issue. They lost the parking at the Ford Engineering Building when FoMoCo restored it and employees now use the lot we used to use. But, I agree, there must be somewhere to park trailers and campers.
I will not name who told me,but i was told by a very good source 1 or 2 ocf's ago what was going to happen but i said nothing and thought at the time it was bs. If i remember right it was spelled out to me and the woman in charge now was some relation to a friend who i will not name! All to often i learn by hindsight being 20-20! A great post Don,and i was dumbfounded by the mess up front and the unused space around the buildings and before the RR tracks! Bud.
I do belong to the Willys Overland Knight Registry, but am not an active member. David Leipelt and his dad are however. Marty has their contact info.
It occurs to me that the biggest casualty of the inability to park trailers and motor homes on site might be the gaslight parade. If I am allowed to bring an early non-Model-T - the kind of car they seem to want - it's no huge problem if I have to drive it from my motor home and trailer a few blocks away at a campground, or from my tow truck and trailer a few blocks away at a motel. While city driving isn't my favorite pastime, most of us who drive primitive cars have to get into traffic now and then while on tour. BUT NOT AT NIGHT! There's no way I'm leaving the gaslight parade and going back to my trailer in a car with gas headlamps, a kerosene tail tamp, and no brake lights or turn signals. I may be nuts but I'm not suicidal.
I wonder what they have against early bicycles. To my mind, the more the merrier. John and Nancy Grace, who run the Lansing-Dearborn, spend the OCF weekend tooling around Greenfield Village on penny-farthings, and I think it looks great! They are so PO'd by what's happening that they're no going to the OCF this year.
If the Lansing-Dearborn isn't run just before the OCF or some other big event, I won't go to it. It's a hard day's drive from NJ for me, followed by by two hard driving days; 100 miles in a one-lung is a l-o-o-o-ng day, and the LDR is two of them, back to back. And then there's the long ride home. I'm too old. On the other hand, there's no reason the LDR can't be replaced with a couple of days of early-car touring somewhere an easy drive from the OCF. The two events, even though not formally linked, would attract more people than the tour would by itself. It's like the Hershey Hangover. That's an all-day Sunday and half-day Monday tour immediately following the Hershey show. It's a lot of fun, it attracts people from (literally) all over the world, and this year it will happen for the sixth straight year. But if people weren't going to Hershey anyway, that tour would have no draw at all.
Rob, my postings to the HCCA website are almost all tour reports. While I wish it were otherwise, other discussions on that website are pretty sparse. I last wrote for the Gazette over three years ago and have no plans to resume doing so.
Gil Fitzhugh the Elder
A little different perspective ....
Having grown up in the 60's, my idea of campers and travel trailers involve
old station wagons and luggage racks on the top for the camping gear. Pick up
trucks with campers were a PITA to get stuck behind on scenic "camping" roads.
Towed camper trailers were absurdly unacceptable. If they weren't plugging up
the view, they were bungling up the campgrounds, trying to get into places they
did not fit. The modern monster RV's were barely a blip on the radar, but the
Anyone who tries to drive through the Redwoods or down the Coast Highway
knows exactly what I am talking about when I express my dismay for the road
being plugged with lumbering boxes. Don't even get me started about the
people who drag these #@! things into our neighborhoods and toss blue tarps
over them for all to enjoy looking at !
My point ? The general acceptance of the RV scene as part and parcel of many
travel-related events has produced a whole side issue of accommodations by their
sheer bulk. While I cannot speak too the HFM's motivations for crashing the OCF
as people have known it, it seems apparent that dealing with eleventy-thousand
RV's and trailers is NOT part of what they have any interest in accommodating in
their logistical planning. And honestly, I don't blame them a bit. What a PITA !
But this brings my thinking to a place of problem solving, and the first step in
problem solving is to identify the problem/s, and THEN identify the causes. This
parking/RV accommodation issue seems to be a monster of our own making, as
it overloads the planning energies and resources on something utterly unrelated
to the OCF itself with a massive bulk that is brought on site by the participants !
I am left wondering what steps participants might do/might have done to take
this problem out of the equation for the HFM ?
I don't know what answers might be possible here, but let's not overlook our
part in creating problems that may have proved a tipping point for a new attitude
toward how the HFM will run things.
Myself i think the RV or even Trailer parking is part of a pissing contest brought on by some magiment turf war! Two days for the OCF and Two for the MM should not been that hard of a deal. I remember working as a Millwright at Olds when a couple of mid range mgt fought over a building basement and hundreds of thousands of dollars of spare parts either sat outside or were scraped and the building sat empty!!!!!! Once again there is NO Campground for about 25 miles in very heavy modern traffic!! [But let's not overlook our part in creating problems] Sorry Burger but i must have missed you somewhere? Bud.
David Leipelt has resigned from narrating and the OCF and MM committees because of the changes. He still works at THF. I think that leaves only Matt Anderson as an OCF narrator.
Burger, yes the trailer and camper situation is due to our own making. But, from my perspective, it is a good situation. How many other car shows would love to have a similar problem due to it's popularity?
My guess is, knowing fairly well the "campus", that space could be found for campers and trailers.
I placed a call to Sara Ganier at about 11 this morning. I got her answering machine so I left a message telling her who I am, why I was calling and left her my contact info.
As of this time (5:07 pm Detroit time)) I have not received a return call.
Since she was in an all day meeting yesterday, she was probably playing catch-up with work.
I'll try again tomorrow.
You would think that the parking lot used by FoMoCo engineering could be vacated for one week while the event is going on and the employees park at another location and a shuttle provided for them that way the event still uses the parking lot and employees can still get to work it's only one week a year.
Dennis, FoMoCo was doing THF a favor by allowing us to use their lot prior to the company using the building again.
But, maybe you're right. Maybe THF could negotiate something?
I brought that up only as a possibility. I am a million miles away and am talking
out of my ass about any knowledge of layout and arrangements. I only threw it
out there as a possible "other perspective".
My job in AFG was to coordinate MY mission with ongoing combat ops, base
ops, and deliver support to the USMC as dictated by the mission. Had a lot of
diverse problems, egos, and logistics issues, but I got pretty good and was known
for making shit happen. That often times required using a lot of tact (or blunt force
verbals) to get people to see we were all in this together and wanted the same
Some times things just will not work out, and I have questioned if those in power
here have ANY interest at all in a positive outcome for the traditional participants -
it seems they are performing a planned scuttling of the event as it has been known -
but if there is to be any hope of resolution, it is always best to do a hard self exam
of ourselves before presenting our hand to the "other side" and ask "What can WE
do to make this work better ?".
What can we do to make this better? First, it depends on if THF wants to make it better. Second, that's one big reason why I'm trying to open a line of communications between "us" and them.
Maybe we can find out the reasons for the changes and then, help find solutions to the problems.
Kinda the way I see it, THF is not in this alone. I've always sort of thought of participants and THF in this together -- for our enjoyment and, partly, for their profit.
It's like when they came to me to ask about starting the companion Motor Muster. The first thing I suggested was a meeting with representatives collectors and THF to see what participants wanted and how we could make the show a success. That's one reason why MM is not a judged event. The representative collectors didn't want a judged event, they just wanted a fun event.
Maybe I'm a naive Pollyanna, but I'm hoping for the same cooperation this time aroun.
Marty I'm afraid you would be wasting your time. The problem is the sure amount of old cars showing up now days. We all saw it the last 3 years and the entire place was more than max'd out. The new rules will do what they are designed to do and that is to eliminate 60-70 % of the load. Its a tough pill to swallow for those of us on this side of the spectrum but we will get over it and move on. Two years ago the number of cars was over 900. 900 !! That is huge and the village was overrun. So some us will fall victim to the thinning process and those willing to risk the $50.00 will have much more elbow room.
Two years ago, on Saturday morning check in, I pulled my trailer around the registration booth to the left, and stopped, leaving the engine running. I was going to walk the twenty feet to the tent, which had no lines of customers waiting. No sooner than my feet hit the ground, this rent a cop on a bicycle came racing up and started screaming at me to get back in my car and move it out of this wide open area, and over to the other side which was jammed with trailers, cars and people! I tried to tell him that I only wanted to get my packet and then would be driving into the village to unload the six bikes I had with me. He refused to listen, screaming at me and threatening me with expulsion if I did not move! I got back in the car, swung it around and pulled into the crowded lot and stopped, went over, got the packet, and tried to get out of the lot! I could not find a way out! Every way I turned, it was blocked by a car, truck or trailer, or a combination of all! I ended up pulling over a curb, across some grass and a second curb to get out! My point is that nobody was trying to direct parking, and as a result most of the spaces were wasted! If there had been a team to direct parking, the use would have/ could have been a lot better!
Last year after the mess by parking where we were told and then blocked in early Sunday morning we found a nice open spot where we could not get blocked in.In a flash there was a young kid hollering at my grandson who had moved the truck and trailer while i drove the T!!! Years past when for several years i hauled the car trailer in back of the 5'th wheel there was always this nice older man who put us along the fence on the outside of the lot!!! Many of the longer rigs were placed that way to make room for everyone! I see construction last year was a problem,but for two days?? Bud.
Trailers and tow vehicles (big pickup or RV).
There was a time when antique car owners actually DROVE the car to a show. Many folks even DROVE the car to the starting point of a tour, then DROVE the car on the tour, and then DROVE the car home.
Almost no one had a trailer. The term "trailer queen" did not exist. Very few folks could afford a trailer as they had spent all of their money fixing up the old car.
Nowadays we think nothing of loading up our car into a trailer and driving halfway (or more) across the country to participate in a tour or a show.
Any event organizer wants their event to be successful. They like to see it grow annually.
At this point I will intone the old adage: "Be careful what you wish for".
My little town of Keene held a fall Pumpkin Festival in 1991. People brought around 600 carved Jack O Lanterns. It was a fun small town event. The festival grew over the years. Other pumpkin festivals popped up in the area and around the country, even in Boston. It became a competition for the most carved and lit Jack O Lanterns. Keene set the world record Nine times. Largest showing: 30,581. People would FLOOD Keene. It got Really popular and Really crowded.
One year there was a crowd estimated at 80,000 people. Keene has a population of about 23,000. The event got TOO big. There were problems. The Keene city council threw in the towel after the 2014 festival and it now is held in another town in New Hampshire.
Did we like the OCF TOO MUCH and loved it to death? Kinda like that time the hamster got hugged too tight and for too long? My two cents worth, perhaps overvalued. Bill
It was fun and the Jack O Lanterns were spellbinding:
During good driving weather i often drive our 14 t but i'm not in detroit with gas lights,and staying the weekend.I think my car made it to 102 years old because someone took care of it and it's destruction will not be on my watch! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Sara and I have been playing phone tag and, tag, she's it. Left a message asking for another call back. I have to go into the studio in a short while and will be on the air until 7 this evening, so it looks like we'll connect tomorrow.
Meantime, I thought you'd be interested in the list of questions for which I hope to get answers:
IS CVENT RUNNING THE EVENT?
WHAT ISSUES WERE THERE WITH THE PREVIOUS APPLICATION SYSTEM?
WHY A UNIQUE EMAIL FOR EACH APP? (ATTEMPT TO LIMIT CARS?)
WHY FROM $25 TO $50?
WHY NON-REFUNDABLE? WHERE WILL THE MONEY GO?
WHY A 2 PER LIMIT ON WRISTBANDS AND WHY $20 EACH?
WHY ARE BICYCLES, MOTORCYCLES AND MILITARY VEHICLES LIMITED?
WHAT IS THE LIMIT ON EVENT CAPACITY?
WHAT CRITERIA WILL BE USED TO DETERMINE WHICH VEHICLES WILL BE ALLOWED?
HOW WILL YOU DETERMINE HOW MANY AND WHAT MODEL Ts AND As WILL BE ALLOWED?
CAMPER AND MOTOR HOME PARKING: NONE HAVE NEEDED WATER OR ELECTRIC HOOKUPS AND THEY HAVE THEIR OWN RESTROOMS.
WILL PERIOD CAMPERS AND MILITARY CAMPERS BE ALLOWED “ON CAMPUS”?
WHY THE LIMITATION ON PASS IN REVIEW?
HOW WILL IT BE DETERMINED WHO IS PRESELECTED FOR P I N?
HOW WILL THE “SELECTED AT RANDOM” WORK?
WHY HAS THE LANSING TO DEARBORN GROUP BEEN EXCLUDED?
IN GENERAL, WHY THE CHANGES?
I think we know most of those "whys".
You might consider adding the following;
"How can we help to find alternate solutions, more respectful to participants?"
"Can we open a dialog with the planners?"
"How might the non-refundable fee be eliminated?"
"If the fee must be non-refundable, can it be offset with a $50 Village admission credit?" (Not likely a $50 loss for them, since most folks loosing $50 would probably not spend additional cash to be a spectator)
Guy's,Some very good questions and i know many will say thank you for the effort!! Bud.
Exactly, who in their right mind would spend more cash, at face value, to be a spectator after pissing away $50?! In my mind this is hurting the profit potential that they could be earning? They did not think this through when they came up with these changes!
Maybe they are working from "alternative facts."
Who sponsors such an event?? My solution is to move it to Richmond In. Lots of room,good motels and camping on site,with plenty of restaurants.
Jerry Van: somehow when I copied and pasted we lost the question:
What can we do to help?
Step outside your own shoes for a moment. The organizers do not share
your interest in a participant-centric event. You are a PITA to them, not an
asset, or even a concern. The fewer guys like you showing up, the better.
This is about max dollars in and minimal effort on their part. Nothing more,
If that is their plan then, as I said in the first thread about this, it most certainly will work! And we can all quit complaining. It is what it is, just without a lot of us participating/attending.
Exactly, who in their right mind...."
Yes, that's exactly what I said.
The $50 non-refundable application fee is a harbinger of what is to come just like the re-naming of " The Henry Ford ".
Model T owners are not a primary or secondary or any concern to whoever is making the decisions.
Focus on an alternative venue that welcomes - promotes - respects - Model T owners and their contributions .....
Richmond, IN made a calculated long term investment in the Model T Community following the undeniable success of the 2008 Ford Centennial.
There is your answer .....
It is funny how we can get so inside ourselves and believe EVERYBODY
thinks and expects the same things as we do. And then we think "Who, in
their right mind ... ?" when confronted with people who want seek a totally
I am reminded of the LETHAL FORCE signs all around the flightline in
Kandahar and ECP's at any camp throughout theatre. Yet there was always
some guy who wanted to argue that it was OK for him to park there, or be
some place .... right up until someone shot him. And it never ended. The
word never seemed to reach these guys, because the following week another
"special" guy would do it again !
Newsflash, people ..... not all men are created equal, and they sure as hell
don't think the same, want the same things, or feel they have to follow the
rules like "all those other people" !!!
Marty, I did a little grumbling on Twitter asking why the changes. Actually The Henry Ford follows me on there. I did not realize that they did. Might be because I am one of the Advisory Board Members at Michigan International Speedway.
It took days for whoever handles their Twitter account to get back to me. Also they chose to send me their response in a private message, because we both follow each other they can do that. Here is what they sent to me.
"Hi Mike - If you'd like to speak with our programming team about changes to this year's application process for our car shows, you can reach out to them at email@example.com. They're happy to answer any questions or concerns you have."
So whoever responded to me passed it off on to the programming team. Could be the same people you are trying to reach. I think I am not going to reach out to them until I see what you find out. You might have a better chance of getting some answers than I can since you have worked with them for so many years. I am just a participant. Now if this were a show at the speedway I would be on the horn today getting answers for all of you haha. But in this case I think you might get better answers than me.
I will keep watching this thread to see how you come out.
Hey Mike, how about you move the event to MIS. Lots of room and a race track to run on to boot. It might explode with participants.
Mike: Thanks for the info.
I called Sara yesterday morning and she called back just as I was leaving for the studio. I explained that to her and we agreed to try and talk tomorrow (today).
To the best of my knowledge, Sara works with John Neilson and had something to do with the changes.
I'm not so sure about getting better answers.
Given all the (understandably) negative reaction to the changes, I really want to take the approach of trying to offer help from the car folks to, perhaps, get the shows back on track while meeting THF needs.
Don, The speedway actually used to host a car show of some sort in mid summer. This was before I was on the advisory board. For some reason they stopped hosting it. Good point, they do have a ton of room and many campgrounds which the track owns. It would be a great place to host a event. I'll get in contact with the director of guest services today and find out why they stopped having the event. Now you have me curious as well. It would be nice if they revived it.
Marty, thank you for getting back with me. I'm curious as to what you find out. You're right maybe they should meet with or survey the car owners on their thoughts on these changes to try to work with everyone. I'd hate to see them losing cars over this.
I've been asked by an AACA member to post their thread on this:
Bud and all:
Sorry for the delay. I should have posted something yesterday but time got away from me.
I had a nice talk with Sarah at THF yesterday. I'm waiting on one item from her before I can post anything new.
I'm not trying to be coy, just trying to be fair to them and us. After all, we don't want to create animosity but cooperation.
I think once I hear back from her, I'll start Part 4.
Marty, On behalf of all of us who have attended the OCF, I want to thank you for taking the lead to establish communication with those at THF who are changing the rules regarding participation in the OCF. I hope and pray that your efforts are rewarded with mutually beneficial changes to make the OCF better not only for us as participants, but for THF also.
Aww, dang Marty! I was all set to suggest "Part Quatro"!! Keep up the good and possibly exhausting work!
Marty,Like Keith said THANK YOU!!!! Bud.
Marty, Thank you for the update. I was wondering how you came out.
Aw, garsh!! I'm blushing!!!
Well, you're all welcome. The MM and OCF are both very important to a lot of us and, after 35 years of involvement and trying to make it the best we could, I do have a vested interest in this.
I did not hear back from Sarah yesterday (Friday), so I'll connect with her Monday and, hopefully, will have something for us then.
Marty, One question I had for you and I have always wondered this. Back in would have to be around the mid to late 90`s THF got rid of the Motor Muster for several years. Reason I remembered this is because that was right around the time my father purchased his 1937 Ford, and we were like great! we get a car that we can go to the MM and they get rid of it, lol. Then like I said several years later it reappeared. Do you know why they eliminated that show for a while? Was it because of lack of participation? It sure did not seem like that were lacking for cars back then. Or was it because they made some changes participants did not like, kind of like whats going on now. I was just curious.
Marty, One more thought on all of this, and my father and I have been thinking this for a long time now. Why dont THF wave the car show entrance fee for members of the THF? I mean this would be a incentive to get people to join the museum and also if people did join, they might go there other times throughout the year and they would make even more money of concessions and other things. Plus I am sure a lot of these car owners might be more willing to pay a higher fee if it went in to a THF membership. Its just a thought here.
The Motor Muster was suspended for a time because the Eyes on the Classics at The Edsel and Eleanor Ford estate, which is held the same weekend, seemed to be drawing cars from MM. The it was decided pretty much that the heck with it, we'll hold MM and see what happens.
As to your other question, that's a good one for which I have no answer. That's something THF should be asked.
Sorry to hear it Marty! Thank you ever so much for trying! Bud DeLong
Marty, I mean is people were to purchase a membership to THF and got their entrance fees waved because they were a member, and their car for some reason their car did not get accepted, at least they would still have the membership to get in the show, or any time of the year. They way it is now, if you do not get accepted they keep your money and you get nothing. We would have no problem buying a membership to support THF, if they were to waive the entrance fee or most of it
I understood the question/suggestion and I think it's a good one. Not a bad idea.
But, this has to be posed to THF.
Please see the thread "MM and OCF -- Part 4.