Test a coil

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Test a coil
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Wednesday, January 25, 2017 - 10:41 pm:

How's the best way to make temporary connections to coils, for testing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn - Lincoln, NE on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 02:02 am:

To check basic coil function it is easiest to test in the car. With the car running. Using an insulated screw driver short each plug to ground, if the car runs ruff when grounded then you know that coil is functional, move to the next plug and ground it. If when you ground a plug and there is no difference in the way the engine runs you have found a defective coil.

If you do some sort of wiring to power the coil make sure that your spark has a path to ground with no more than a 1/4" gap. In my opinion one of the worst things you can do is power a coil without a path to ground. One of the basic rules of electricity is that current flows through the path of least resistance. If the current in your coil has no path to ground it will create one internally. When this happens it is usually going to create the path through the secondary windings. This causes un-reversible damage to the coil.

Another thing that can cause damage to the coil is to apply power for long periods of time causing the coil to heat up and damage to the capacitor can occur.

If you need assistance you can send me a private message and I will be happy to assist you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 11:27 am:

Tommy
Here is a photo of the coil overheating Mike is talking about.
1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 12:53 pm:

I don't recommend shorting spark plugs to ground to test if the cylinder if firing or not. Doing so is very stressful on the coil, causing the primary coil current to rise substantially higher than normal as well as the resulting coil voltages.

That's because shorting the spark plug to ground shorts the coil secondary winding to ground which significantly reduces the coil primary inductance to just its leakage value. I recommend using an insulated tool to hold the coil points OPEN to disable the coil from firing when you want to test if a cylinder is firing or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 01:34 pm:

Insulated? I just use a finger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 01:37 pm:

Couldn't you simply disconnect the wires going from the timer into coil (at the firewall) one by one, to check for a bad cylinder?

It seems that this would prevent the coil from being involved at all, this eliminating any danger to the coils.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 01:39 pm:

Mike,

In your warning above, are you supposing that the "short to ground" is a dead short, not allowing an arc, or are you thinking of a screwdriver, brought near enough to the plug to initiate an arc, (if the coil is operating well enough to offer one), but no closer?

If it's the latter scenario, how does that differ from the normal action of a coil, firing a spark plug, sending the charge to ground?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 01:39 pm:

That's Mike K. I'm asking by the way...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 01:40 pm:

BTW, I don't mean that I am able to tolerate a shock. I mean it doesn't shock me. I absolutely HATE to get shocked.

My Grandaddy used to pull a plug wire and put his knife up in it and say "Turn it over. Yep, that'n's firin'". I didn't inherit that trait.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 02:54 pm:

My Gramps could hold onto an electric fence, yell at us kids to come over without noticing he was "grounded" and say" touch my finger" - didn't take too many times of that to shy away from Gramps !

He could also "hang onto" the spark plug connectors on my Model A and tell me they were indeed, all firing !

I also did not inherit that trait !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 02:57 pm:

I have a small screwdriver with a neon light in the handle. Touch the blade to the top of the plug when the motor is running and it will let you know if it is firing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 03:00 pm:

Hal - My Dad used to tell me that his older brother (my Uncle Jack, long gone) was a pretty good mechanic, but NOBODY would go anywhere near him if he was working on an automobile engine that was idling. Dad said he would unexpectedly reach out to shake hands with any bystander, while touching a spark plug on the running engine with his other hand. The result being that that would be one more person that quickly learned to stay away from Uncle Jack when he was working on a car! I can't understand how anybody could do that, because personally, I'd rather take a good punch in the gut that an ignition shock!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 03:08 pm:

Hi Steve - Similar story but we were typing at the same time! Still haven't made it up to your "new digs" to see you and your lovely "social director/financial advisor", but hope to see you at the Puyallup swap meet! Assuming you won't have a booth, but I'll probably be wearing my black "FORUM MEMBER" baseball cap that I bought from the late Bob McDonald who had a bunch of those made,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 03:11 pm:

Tommy - Sorry to "clutter up" your thread, but it did appear that your question had been answered,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 03:15 pm:

I gathered from your question that you're trying to see if coils work outside of the car. Got a toy train x-former with AC terminals? A lot of newer ones run accessories off ac terminals. Connections? Oh a bit of tape will hold it in place on the coil for a buzz test. The simplist set up is shown in the pic. requires 2 lenghts of insulated
wire a bit of clothes hanger wire a vice and the x-former mentioned. As to the spark gap: you try taking a selfie with a sparky.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 03:33 pm:

Letting it jump a gap of more than 1/4" is not good either. Can lead to internal arcing. I will admit to having done it myself. It's impressive, but bad for the coil nonetheless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 03:36 pm:

Sorry I misread the banner I thought the discussion was about Tesla Coil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 04:27 pm:

What Mike Vaughn said with the addition of what Mike Koser said. I will add, that this method will tell you whether or not you are getting fire to that cylinder. But four other things it won't tell you is whether you have a problem in the timer, the wiring or the spark plug itself. This additional test will answer that question. Swap coils with one that is working and see if the miss goes with the coil or stays with the original spark plug.

An open or grounded wire between the timer and coil box can cause it to miss as well as an open or shorted connection inside the coil box. And of course a defective spark plug can also cause the same symptoms.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 04:46 pm:

What you cannot see is the random misfires that coils often have from a poor performing capacitor.

An HCCT will show those misfires, but it will not show a bad capacitor and they are almost always bad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 05:11 pm:

The stories of intentional exposure to an operating Model T coil spark plug terminal are very shocking!

Jerry, its the former, not the latter; direct electrical connection to engine ground that creates the high primary current.

James, a little oxidation on the HCCT pointer and/or spark ring can cause missing sparks too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 05:44 pm:

Theory and facts are not always the same.

Tommy if you want to discuss how to properly test a coil you ought to call Ron Patterson. The forum tends to attract people with varying levels of experience. Often opinions are given that have little or no basis in fact.

You won't find anyone anywhere who knows more about a Model T coil, has more experience with them, and how to properly test a Model T coil than Ron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 07:51 pm:

I have found that when it comes to testing and adjusting coils the newest and most modern methods are far superior to the old crude methods of the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 08:22 pm:

Far? Got some data to back that up?

THAT right there is my problem with this new stuff. I don't care how anyone adjusts their coils or what timer they use. I really dont. If it works for you, then great, but some just can't seem to talk about it without running down the original system or HCCT's. THAT is my problem with this new stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 08:55 pm:

Hal, the statements of the satisfied users who experience the difference with the newer technology is all we have at the present time.
I have the luxury of having all the adjusting tolls,(old and modern} that is how I came to the conclusion that modern is better.

I tested the coils on my 14 and 26.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 09:07 pm:

I respectfully request you discontinue making statements about one method being FAR SUPERIOR until you can provide proof of this FAR SUPERIORITY of which you speak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 09:48 pm:

Since you asked, Hal, I have some data to share to back that up.

I recently gave an ECCT demonstration at a Model T club in Florida for a great bunch of members and their guests from another club; the turnout was great and we had a wonderful time discussing coil testing and adjustment. Afterwards, a club member presented his coils and asked if I would test them on the ECCT which I did. The coils and points were in great condition. The point geometry was excellent, a quality re-build. 3 coils fired late to varying degrees and one fired early. All had good firing consistency; very typical of HCCT adjusted coils I commented. The owner announced that his coils came from Ron the Coilman and ran very well in his car. I asked if he would like me to re-adjust his coils for equal firing time using the ECCT; he said yes, please do. I agreed with the stipulation he report back to the group how the coils performed in his car; he agreed. A few easy taps and one gentle pry was all it took and all coils were firing spark in equal time and excellent firing consistency (95%).

The next day, I received a phone call from the gentleman on Tour. He said he just could not believe how smooth his car ran with the ECCT adjusted coils and had to call me. Didn't seem to have much more horse power he said, but just ran remarkably smoother and wanted to express his gratitude for having his coils adjusted on the ECCT. I thanked him for reporting his experience and told him his experience was very typical of what other ECCT users have reported and was very pleased to learn they performed as well for him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 09:58 pm:

It would be great to have a non biased blind test to clear up the misconceptions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 10:22 pm:

A misconception is a conclusion that's wrong because it's based on faulty thinking or facts that are wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 10:34 pm:

Agreed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 10:36 pm:

Why is it so difficult to believe 4 coils set for equal firing time within 0.00002 second using a modern computer and simulated 2000 RPM engine operation can achieve a smoother running engine than setting 4 coils for the same average current on an HCCT being cranked at an abnormally slow engine speed of 60-120RPM, in which the coils will never operate?

Engine performance depends upon ignition timing, NOT coil current! Why is it so hard to believe an engine can run smoother with equal and consistent firing coils? Its not even a level playing field; Modern computer technology versus 100 year old technology! Is it really that difficult to believe there could possibly be an advantage to using modern technology? Sorry, I just don't get it....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 10:43 pm:

Mike, you went out of your way to post dyno results on the E-Timer vs the original system using 12v, 6v, and magneto plus distributor, if I remember correctly. So why not do the same with coils adjusted by the various means? This ECCT stuff has been going on for years now with no proof of this claimed superior performance other than subjective seat of the pants test results like "It feels so much better".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 11:29 pm:

Hal, have discussed conducting a coil performance comparison with Tom Graham. He has to have the engine and equipment available to run a Dynamometer test and will contact me if and when he does, possibly this summer. I think it would be an interesting test to run but doubt it will make any difference to sway your opinion regardless of the results. In the end, if you are happy with they way you adjust your coils and satisfied with how they make your engine perform in your car, it really doesn't matter one way or the other.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 12:16 am:

Mike,

I'd like to see it. I hope you are able to make the necessary arrangements. I'm not sure I have an opinion to sway, really. I have my suspicions of what the result will be. And I'll share that with you. I predict that coils adjusted by both methods will give similar results. One may be slightly better than the other, but even so, I predict the difference will not be so great as to be characterised as "Far superior" to an objective person.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 12:20 am:

Should have added:

That is just a prediction. A hypothesis if you will. I could be wrong. Hopefully, we will find out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 07:58 am:

Hal,this discussion using words like far superior and misconceptions to describe the model T coil adjustment reminds me of the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 08:20 am:

It is a fact, that you can have coils rebuilt and adjusted on a hand cranked coil tester by an expert, and testing them with Mike's ECCT will prove that they are off by as much as 6 degrees ignition timing. I have seen this three times myself. If you have timed a distributor equipped engine with a timing light you know what difference 6 degrees makes. Now consider that some of the coils are 2 degrees early and others are 4 degrees late. It makes a noticeable improvement in engine smoothness.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 08:46 am:

If it will cheer you up any to know, Mike does also have an original and restored Allen Hand Crank Coil Tester to compare readings with and they are slightly different.

I know this, because I sold it to him and compared readings with a set of coils that he set up with the ECCT.

Those coils are in my test stand engine now and the engine still starts almost immediately, and runs smoothly, after long periods of inactivity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 08:50 am:

Arnold,

Them's your words, not mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 09:05 am:

And I'll go a step further. Maybe it is insanity. You guys keep coming on here and try to say how inferior coils are that are adjusted on an HCCT, and expect no one to take exception. How insane is that?

I've said on here SEVERAL times that I don't care what timer somebody uses and I don't care how they adjust their coils. My intolerance is for those who choose to come on a Model T forum and try to say what a dog a Model T is if you use the original ignition system or don't adjust your coils with an ECCT. THAT, I have no tolerance for! You don't want to hear from me on this subject? I just told you what my hot button is. You won't have to hear from me if you'd only not push it. I will defend the original system when someone tries to slander it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 09:05 am:

Eeee... bad timing. The discussion is not about a Tesla Coil, but testing a coil. Oh, I am so sorry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 10:30 am:

I have a Strobo-Spark, an HCCT and an ECCT. I first got the Strobo-Spark from John Regan because it was the quickest (immediately available) and cheapest way to do a proper coil adjustment. Later I bought an unrestored HCCT from Ron Patterson and restored it. When Mike Kosser began Beta testing the ECCT, I volunteered to test it and subsequently bought one after the end of the Beta test.

So you know where I am coming from - I am totally in the "original" camp. By that I mean that I am interested in making our Model Ts as close to original as possible so that both my experience of owning, maintaining and driving one and other people's perception of what a Model looks and drives like is as accurate as I can make it, 100 years later. I've certainly seen the posts by those that somewhat ridicule this mindset with the "do you use original air too?" type of arguments and I am also certainly aware that some things today are just not the same as they were then (tires are a good example). I try to use all original Ford parts and hardware, but I'm not completely there yet and may never be.

Some will say that original appearance is what matters, but for me it is both original appearance and the performance that matters. If something claims to "improve" on the original parts, I don't want them because I want it just like it was. For me this means that things like an E-Timer and a voltage regulator are automatically disqualified. And for the "original" critics - no, I wouldn't reuse pot metal thrust washers in the rear axle (but Ford also used bronze ones) because that doesn't change the driving or maintenance experience at all (until they break!).

So why use an ECCT if you are an "originalist"? For me it is highly educational regarding the function of the Model T coils. Having the ability to chart a sequence of coil firings and see how regular they are, etc, is really interesting. I had the privilege being one of the first people who got to test ECCT-tuned coils in an HCCT and wonder about why double-sparking was seen on the HCCT but the car still ran well. I tested multiple sets of coils in multiple cars on multiple occasions (using multiple ECCTs also) so I have some experience with comparing coils tuned with the three different methods. I even ran multiple timed tests of acceleration with various sets of coils and test methods.

In my experience all three testers can give you a set of coils that make the car run great. I think that a little more skill is needed in using the HCCT and Strobo-Spark to get coils that fire consistently compared with each other. It also seemed that ECCT-tuned coils were more likely to give a perception of a little more smoothness. But I certainly didn't see anything to indicate that the ECCT-tuned coils were "far" superior in performance - the performance was very similar in my experience. I think that if someone sees a big difference in performance between the coil testing methods, it is probably because the HCCT or Strobo-Spark tuned coils were not setup properly in the first place or were put out of adjustment in the meantime. It is really easy to bump a set of points on a coil and change the adjustment - this can happen in shipment or during installation, etc.

It would be great to see a real quantitative comparison test between coils tuned with the various methods. But I don't expect to see major differences to be proven. I found in my own tests that it is hard to control all of the variables. If you use the same exact set of coils, then the points will be manipulated (bent) additional times for the later tests and that could affect performance. If you use a different set of coils, there could be differences in the primary or secondary coils inside that can affect the performance. So while I'd love to see an extensive quantitative test, I would be surprised if everyone would be convinced of the results.

One last thing - the one thing that was the biggest revelation for me after doing all of the coil testing is that the ECCT-tuned coils showed that the coils can work very well with a lower average coil amperage which makes hand-cranking on magneto easier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 10:36 am:

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the model T is a dog if you use the original ignition system. What I am saying is that it just seems obvious to me that a system used 100 years ago to adjust coils may not be as good as a system that uses modern technology to adjust the same coils.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 11:22 am:

You said ECCT coils were FAR SUPERIOR. That most certainly implies HCCT are FAR INFERIOR. So I am not putting words in your mouth. You prove they are FAR SUPERIOR or quit saying it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 12:00 pm:

Prove that coils that are adjusted with the ECCT are inferior to HCCT adjusted coils.
You are not the only one with a hot button.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 12:15 pm:

Never said they were! YOU are the one who's claiming superiority. Not just superior, but FAR SUPERIOR! YOUR words. But you can't back it up, so now you're trying to put it on me. Well I ain't taking it. Man up and admit you're wrong. Are they really FAR SUPERIOR? Are they?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 12:25 pm:

As a matter of fact, go back and read my post of 12:16 this morning. You can see I even accept the possibility that ECCT may test better than HCCT coils, but I suspect they'll be close. THAT is my stance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phillip Maurici on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 01:46 pm:

I do not own a HCCT coil tester because there are not that many around. I do own an ECCT tester. It is easy to use and are readily obtainable. Now I can adjust and maintain my coils without sending them out. My 4 ModelTs run great and probability better than most.
I do not care which method is used to set coils, just how they run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 03:17 pm:

If you read the testimony on this board it shows that coils adjusted on the ECCT are CLEARLY FAR SUPERIOR to coils adjusted on the HCCT. " THAT is my stance."

That is my proof and if you don't agree that is fine with me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 04:06 pm:

Well, I guess that settles that. You have no proof to back up your claims and don't even have the integrity to admit it. Instead, you try to worm your way out of your situation, spouting opinion as fact. Show me some hard data. If I'm wrong I'm man enough to admit it. You? Not so much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 04:17 pm:

You just don't seem to get it. I am not wrong. To fully judge how effective something is you need to use it. I use the ECCT and am well aware of it's superiority.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 04:28 pm:

"You just don't seem to get it. I am not wrong."

Oh, I get it! Believe me. I get it. I think everyone else gets it too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 04:33 pm:

Yes Hal everyone else does gets it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 04:46 pm:

Time out guys...... go get some ice cream


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 05:14 pm:

Easy enough to prove scientifically. Put a degree wheel on an HCCT and mark the location of the sparks on coils set on an HCCT. Now, "fix" the 6 degree error using the ECCT and put it on YouTube showing the massive error. If the claims are fact and not based on some mathematical theory, the marks would be way apart.

Based on an 8 inch spark ring, the circumference is roughly 25 inches (plus a bit). Divide by 360 and multiply the answer by 6. That would be the separation in inches. I come up with .420 which is between 3/8 and 7/16.

I'm calling BS on this. I have set two many coils and even the difference between single and double sparks isn't that much.

You guys claiming "far superior" should have no problem putting the proof on YouTube. Then, you could claim "earth shattering superiority". Please post a link to your "earth shattering" video when you get it loaded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 05:51 pm:

John, Thanks for sharing your experience with coil testing and performance. Some other folks have also reported just equal engine performance of ECCT adjusted coils compared with other methods of adjustment. That really isn't too surprising considering engine performance depends upon several other variables to achieve optimal performance; coil to coil firing time variation is only one of the variables. An timer off center with the CAM shaft, timer contact to contact timing variation, spark plug to spark plug gap variation are a few of the other ignition variables that could be the performance limiting factor which mask coil to coil firing time variation. This would be one of the performance metrics that could be measured during Dynamometer testing.

I too wondered why ECCT adjusted coils produced double-sparks when tested on the HCCT but the car still ran well. I spent a good deal of time taking data to understand why and documented my findings in this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/713867.html?1484498926 and linked report. The pulse tests were useful to explain the root cause. I also conducted AC tests using a variable voltage sine wave to emulate magneto operation, half wave rectified to allow the coil to rest between firings like the timer does. That data also clearly showed superior ECCT coil firing consistency at normal engine speed and variable magneto output voltage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 06:11 pm:

Gary,

I applaud your thought and suggestion but its scientifically flawed. The problems are many; powering the coil under test using an abnormally slow rising magneto voltage pulse from an HCCT cranked at the abnormally slow engine speed of 60-120 RPM with abnormally low voltage amplitude does not provide a realistic baseline for coil firing behavior or platform to measure a 0.001 second timing variation; that is 6 degrees with the engine operating at 1000 RPM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 07:01 pm:

Mike - Yes, I read your article on the double sparks and thought it was very informative - thank you. Regarding your comment about why some people only saw roughly equal performance with ECCT-tuned coils vs the HCCT ones - the reason may not be that something else is wrong with the car that masks coil to coil firing differences. It may be that the differences are so small that they are not noticeable because the HCCT-tuned coils are also close in firing time and the difference just isn't that noticeable period.

I think the ECCT is a great tool for adjusting the coils and it is probably easier for a novice to get consistent results with it vs an HCCT . However it is still possible to get coils that fire close in time using an HCCT if the coils themselves are similar and user has the necessary knowledge and experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 08:50 pm:

John, I completely agree with you. It is absolutely possible to get similar coils to fire close in time using an HCCT if the user has the necessary knowledge and experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 09:56 pm:

Not to stoke your fire, but the HCCT does have some less than far superior features.

I often help other club members get their Model Ts running good or better.

The first step is usually to check the coils for performance and current settings.

That task is much easier to perform with a StroboSpark or an ECCT (which I do not have), but each one of those devices weigh under 5 pounds and the HCCT weighs 125 pounds, which would make transportation more difficult.

The StroboSpark and ECCT both check the capacitor, for size and leakage, which is often bad in an older coil.

The HCCT has no capacitor check capability and many do not display the voltage level required to initiate sparks, which can vary several volts, depending on the coil and point settings.

I have noticed that some coils start sparking at a higher voltage level and make hand cranking an engine more difficult to get a start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Friday, January 27, 2017 - 10:51 pm:

Arnold, you obviously have an extensive amount of expertise with the Model T. I've been around Model Ts and Model As for 45 years now, but I am always looking to learn something new about these incredible vehicles. I have to ask: why is it that you only post on this Forum whenever the topic of ECCT comes up?

(Message edited by Conversiont on January 27, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 09:49 am:

Not true but funny you should ask. The thread yesterday I feel was more about bullying than coil testing. Bullying is a national epidemic.
I hate to see it on our forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 10:21 am:

Funny, I see it more a matter of someone who let their mouth get them into a situation and instead of having the integrity to admit they shouldn't have said it, they doubled down and kept digging their hole until they couldn't get out, embarrassing themselves in the process.

If you had said you 'prefer' to use an ECCT or that you 'feel' the ECCT gives you better results or anything like that, you would never have heard from me. It's your unsubstantiated statement that an ECCT is FAR SUPERIOR that got you into this. You stated it as fact and when asked to prove your "Fact", you couldn't do it. A man of integrity would have said he was sorry and re-worded his statement. You, instead, chose to double down and proclaim you were right, no matter what and cite others' opinion as your proof. You embarrassed yourself and now want to play the role of victim.

What is a national epidemic is people not wanting to take responsibility for their own actions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 10:25 am:

About a month ago I discovered, to my disbelief, that factual information is not appreciated on the forum. If one wants to offer information it has to be given as an opinion only.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 10:35 am:

I don't have a problem with a statement of fact, if it is indeed a fact. I do have a problem when someone expects their opinion to be accepted as fact with no proof other than because they say so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 11:21 am:

HERE WE GO AGAIN

proof

noun
1.
evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2.
anything serving as such evidence:
What proof do you have?
3.
the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial:
to put a thing to the proof.
4.
the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5.
Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6.
the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7.
an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 11:26 am:

You're not helping your case, Arnold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 11:33 am:

HERE WE GO AGAIN

proof

noun
1.
evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2.
anything serving as such evidence:
What proof do you have?
3.
the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial:
to put a thing to the proof.
4.
the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5.
Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6.
the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7.
an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 02:32 pm:

Maybe they were alternative facts. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 03:30 pm:

One trick pony.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 04:29 pm:

Ron I did not say," I have an extensive amount of expertise with the Model T" YOU DID!

I have an ECCT and I use it, I and and others have first hand knowledge of the results of adjusting coils with it.

Try it you will like it. The world has come a long way in a hundred years. Modern technology is here to stay.

I am just saying," Don't knock it till you've tried it."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 05:08 pm:

I hope Mike can keep up with the orders that this thread is creating :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 05:25 pm:

A worthy successor to Billy Mays.....and that was the point of my initial post (check out the definition of "facetious" since the dictionary is apparently out).

If I was interested in modern technology, I'd occupy myself with a Tesla or Prius - but thanks for the periodic hyperbolic infomercials.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 05:44 pm:

Your model T is full of technology that did not exist one hundred years ago. The oil,paint trans bands etc. Why are you questing the ECCT? Even Henry Ford could not tell how your coils were adjusted.

This thread is not about me it is about coil adjustments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 07:26 pm:

I stand with you Arnold. I want to say I like your cars as well. You are correct. This is not about you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arnold on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 08:01 pm:

Thanks Dave. Take a look at my new profile picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, January 28, 2017 - 09:14 pm:

Love it, Arnold. You should abbreviate your city to "S.Park"


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