Looking for advice and thoughts on these worn bearings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Looking for advice and thoughts on these worn bearings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Monday, January 30, 2017 - 06:21 pm:

Hi guys. Haven't been on here in a while, which means my '24 Roadster has been sitting on blocks patiently waiting more restoration. So the front and rear axles are done, the drive shaft is done, the body is off, and the motor is apart. Whew. So, in looking at the crankshaft and bearings, I'm finding some wear. There wasn't really any "slop" when it turned, and the car actually ran pretty smoothly. But the pictures will show you what I'm looking at. My "assistant" in the project is quite an experienced motor and transmission guy, but not with Model T's. And my remote adviser is extremely knowledgeable in this field, but two hours away. So I'm asking for any input on this to help me decide how far to go with this before I put it all back together. I know this wear wouldn't pass on anything modern, but how does it rate on a '24?

Yeah, in a perfect world I could just send the whole entire thing somewhere and pay someone to fix it all. But in that world, my checkbook would allow me to simply buy another fully restored car every month. Not happening...... Any thoughts?
Thanks. Trey

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, January 30, 2017 - 06:32 pm:

I can't open your pics Trey but I'll chime in as a life long mechanic : the T was a bit of a shock to me at first. The old " forget what you think you know " saying still rings in my ears. If you're already apart get knowledgeable advice. Not knocking your assistant but dems the facts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Monday, January 30, 2017 - 06:38 pm:

I don't think I've loaded the pics correctly. Sorry. I will try again, but not for a couple hours. Hold your comments til you can see the damage. Or simply feel free to chat on which is the most lacking... my knowledge of Model T's or of computers.....

I'll get the pics up a little later tonight. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, January 30, 2017 - 06:54 pm:

What are your crankshaft dimensions? How much out of round, mains and rods? How much taper in your rod journals? How much end play in the third main?

Is any of the Babbitt cracked?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 01:01 am:

Well, I've tried getting these pics on here a few times now, but it says they are way too large. For now, if you want to see the pics to help give me some advice, please give me your email and I'll send them to you. Perhaps that's not the kosher way to do this, but it's about all I can do until I figure out how to shrink these pics. My email is gwaltneyathome@aol.com. Feel free to contact me. Sorry for the inconvenience, but thanks for any help.
Trey

Here is the original post again, so you don't have to scroll back to refer to it.....

========================================

Hi guys. Haven't been on here in a while, which means my '24 Roadster has been sitting on blocks patiently waiting more restoration. So the front and rear axles are done, the drive shaft is done, the body is off, and the motor is apart. Whew. So, in looking at the crankshaft and bearings, I'm finding some wear. There wasn't really any "slop" when it turned, and the car actually ran pretty smoothly. But the pictures will show you what I'm looking at. My "assistant" in the project is quite an experienced motor and transmission guy, but not with Model T's. And my remote adviser is extremely knowledgeable in this field, but two hours away. So I'm asking for any input on this to help me decide how far to go with this before I put it all back together. I know this wear wouldn't pass on anything modern, but how does it rate on a '24?

Yeah, in a perfect world I could just send the whole entire thing somewhere and pay someone to fix it all. But in that world, my checkbook would allow me to simply buy another fully restored car every month. Not happening...... Any thoughts?
Thanks. Trey


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 11:05 pm:

Ok, so I hope these pics come through alright. Multiple attempts at re-sizing. Whew....

To Ted: From checking with a mic, the journals seem NOT to be out of round. They all measure right around 1.245, but we have yet to check for any taper. There is between .022 and .023 of thrust in the third main. Having cleaned and dried the block and crankshaft, and setting it back in place, it is amazing how smoothly it turns. The rod bearings look great, btw.

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 11:08 pm:

Dammit. I still think these pics aren't working....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 11:41 pm:

Here's one more attempt.....







SUCCESS!!!! Here they finally are! Well, let me know what you think. I have a feeling I know what most of you will say.....

(Thanks for your patience with me.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Spencer Vibert - Granby ,CT on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 11:49 pm:

needs new bearings and the crank reground time for a full rebuild


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 01:04 am:

I have seen worse. Cleaned up, fitted, and run worse. It really depends on the crank's measurements, straight, round, etc. The pitting on the crank could be a future issue. I have heard some people say "oil distribution", but that is kind of a joke. Cracks can and often do begin in rust pit holes. It depends a little bit on how deep they are. The gouging on the rear main is due to dirt and/or abrasives running through the oil, and chewing up the bearing surface. Another very important point, is just how straight the alignment between the three main bearings is. Often (especially due to that much dirt running through says the rear main), the center main tends to wear high. Simple tightening of the mains can forcibly flex the center of the crank up and cause it to flex with each and every revolution. That is one of the greatest causes of broken crank shafts in model T Fords.
It mostly boils down to what you want? And what you can afford. IF the crankshaft measures good enough? Those bearings could probably be re-fitted and run for a long time. If you want a long-time good runner? And can afford it? It is borderline. And a full proper rebuild would be a good idea.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 09:32 am:

Spencer and Wayne, thanks for the comments. I'm sure you'll see more questions from this "newbie".....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 09:53 am:

Looks like it's been run with really filthy oil, containing lots of debris. I would say if the bearing fit is still relatively good, I would use it as-is but would scrape the bearings in and double check the alignment of all 3 mains. I wouldn't worry too much about the crankshaft pitting as long as it does not exist in the corner radii at the edges of the journals. Do however check the crank journals, (all 7 of them), for an out-of-round condition. More than .0015 out-of-round will never result in a good and lasting bearing fit. A little taper, barreling or hourglass condition can be tolerated, as long as the bearing has been fit to conform to it.

Naturally, having the crank magnafluxed is not a bad idea. If it gets rejected, ask what the indication was that caused rejection. A crack is an obvious problem, however shops will usually reject anything they test if ANY indications are spotted. Folds and inclusions for example are simply manufacturing flaws that were there from day one and are not necessarily a problem. Still a test lab will reject a crank displaying either of those issues. Folds or inclusions will appear as linear indications that run parallel to the journal centerline. Cracks on the other hand run perpendicular to the journal centerline. My personal opinion is that a lot of cranks get tossed needlessly. But, cranks do break and erring on the side of caution is no great sin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 10:00 am:

The babbitt job was poorly done, or it is old and falling apart. You need to have the Babbitt replaced, line bored properly, and the crankshaft turned if it is not already too small. Generally a Model T crank is considered good if it can be cleaned up at .020" undersize or larger. It needs to be checked properly for cracks using magnuflux or other typical machine shop practices.

I would not consider reassembling that engine. It is worn out, all done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 11:43 am:

I have seen many engines that look like this over my years in the hobby.

I think you are at a point which might be described as "You can pay me now, or you can pay me more later". Let me explain.

You have an old motor that probably has seen little if any maintenance since it was built. Your car survived both the Great Depression (When, I am told, you could buy the best Model T around for $5), and the scrap drives of World War II. But the common attitude of that time was that Model Ts were pretty much cheap cars for people who could not afford better, and who skimped on maintenance as much as they could. One of the ways people did this was by not changing the oil as frequently as they should have, and when they did, they frequently used the cheapest oil they could buy. Your car's motor probably experienced this, and consequently it shows the effects of that lack of proper maintenance.

Yes, you could put it back together, give it a ring and a valve job, and probably run the engine that way for some time. However, main bearings must be in perfect alignment if you want to avoid breaking a crankshaft, and main bearings do wear. If you decide to tighten the main bearings by removing shims from under the main bearings, especially on the center main, you may be inadvertently forcing the crankshaft out of alignment, which will most likely result in a broken crankshaft at some time in the future. I speak from personal experience on this one. New crankshafts are available, but are not inexpensive. Reground originals on a good core with new perfectly aligned babbitt bearings can be very satisfactory in service. They are also less expensive.

Undoubtedly the rod bearings, pistons, camshaft, transmission, etc are in a similar condition. Continuing to run the engine in this condition will likely mean that when it is finally time to rebuild the engine, it will be more expensive because the parts will be just that much more worn then.

So, what to do? Unless you have to have the car on the road soon, take your time. Find an engine rebuilder who is willing to work with you on this project. Do it a piece at a time out of your current cash flow, so you don't have to go into debt over this. A good engine rebuilder will do the work you cannot do, leaving you work that you can do on your own. Do the the motor in stages first, as your budget allows. Then go after the transmission. Final assembly is something you can do yourself, if you take your time, and seek the advice of other Model T-ers on this forum or who live relatively near you. Join the local Model T Ford club. Study Mike Bender's YouTube videos on Model T engine rebuilding. They are first rate.

One of the most rewarding things about owning a Model T is the ability to work on it yourself. Not only do you have the pride of ownership, you also can also enjoy the pride of doing most of the work yourself. This is one of the reasons that I always seem to have an ongoing Model T project. I enjoy doing the work, and enjoy the feeling of accomplishment from having done it myself.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 12:46 pm:

For what it's worth, I totally agree with Trent, who has a lot more experience and expertise than I do. I'll add the saying that the question isn't whether a Model T crankshaft will break, but when. The best original crank for your 1924 car would be one of the later ones marked with EE. Even better would be a new SCAT crank. Yes, they cost a lot, but they have a record of not breaking. As far as I know, the only broken one occurred last year and the speculation on what did the damage was inconclusive. Somebody with a better memory can correct me if I'm wrong. I consider one failure in hundreds (thousands?) of cranks a mighty good record.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 12:08 pm:

Guys, thanks so much for your advice and suggestions. We are considering options and looking at various machine shops. I'll keep you posted......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 09:03 am:

I don't know what Royce is talking about "The babbitt job was poorly done, or it is old and falling apart". The babbitt appears to be original Ford production and only has some smears. I agree with others that it is salvagable/workable. If the crank is excessively worn, out of round, etc., then it should be reground or replaced. Regrinding will cause need for a rebabbitt job. If you replace the crank with a SCAT, then you can save the original babbitt by reboring it to an oversize to clean up and have SCAT provide you with an oversize crank to match. This is what I did on a block to save a rebabbitt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 11:28 am:

Trey:
I would guess that by the looks of the crankshaft and bearings that you need to re-grind the crankshaft if possible and re-Babbitt ...as a short term repair in addition to correctly fitting the journal diameters by scraping and lapping you would also need to correct for an excessive thrust clearance that will probably exist due to the wear that is evident elsewhere ...the correct way would be to recondition or replace the parts as needed ...always an optimist...gene french


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