Wheel spoke replacement questions.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Wheel spoke replacement questions.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 11:50 pm:

Wheel questions:
Which spoke is used 1/2 inch tenon or 5/8 tenon for a 30 x 3.5 demountable steel felloe wheel?
Wheel won't fit on my drill press. What is a way to drill the spoke holes straight for the hub bolts?
What size bit for the hub bolt holes?

Several previous wheel spoke threads:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/302832.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/464734.html?1406477790

Truing: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/37763.html?1192780426

Regan spoke press plan: http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/WheelpressA2.pdf

Steve Jelf video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKZ7WrfHdf8&list=UUFVx528ORtpDgCPJXbFCA6w&index= 1&feature=plpp_video

Finishing and painting:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/574477.html?1443444317
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/186068.html
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/503788.html?1419641336
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/354230.html?1365612585


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, January 31, 2017 - 11:58 pm:

I think the tenon size depends on what company made the wheel. Can't you just measure the holes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 01:03 am:

Sure I can measure the holes but tight fit of the bolt through the wood or loose fit of the bolt through the wood or does it matter?

Discussion of tenon size here: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/282802.html?1335232277
Ford is 1/2 tenon and Kelsey - Hayes which did not exist before 1927 are 5/8 tenon? Kelsey - Hayes identifiable by the notch in the rim where the lug nut goes through?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 01:36 am:

Tenon size is totally dependent on the steel felley. They actually came in more than two sizes when new. The tenon does need to be a tight press fit. Otherwise, the spoke will move in the steel felley and begin to wear.
The hub bolts should be a snug fit, or slightly tighter does not hurt. However, you should not have to drive the bolts in hard with a hammer. Hub bolts should be 3/8 inch, and a 3/8 inch sharp drill bit should be good. I use a common hand-held electric drill to drill the holes. Be sure to center the spokes well over the hub holes.
A couple tricks that help. Start out with a slightly smaller hole (5/16 or 11/32 inch). Begin drilling from the hub side (outer flange off). After the first holes are drilled all around, install the outer flange, then drill from the outer side with the proper 3/8 bit. To help drill the hole straight (smaller size and 3/8 both), use a good drill press to drill a nice straight hole through a scrap of 2 by 4 (pine will work, oak if you have such a scrap is better). Holding that flat on the hub flange can help to hold the drill straight. (My dad had a scrap of aluminum with about four holes drilled into it of different sizes.)
A little care, and new spokes should wind up nice and tight, and last for many years. Re-fitting old spokes gets a little trickier.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 09:36 am:

Ignacio,

Steve was not talking about the size of the hub bolt hole. He was saying you could simply measure the size of the tennon your spoke now has.

As to the hub bolt holes, a tight fit with the bolt is best. Be CERTAIN that the bolt holes are drill on the joints between adjacent spokes. Doing that, along with a tight/snug fit, has the effect of "keying" the whole assembly together. In other words, the bolts act like keys that lock the whole spoke assembly together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 09:44 am:

Take a thick block of hard wood like maple, drill a nice straight, perpendicular hole on a drill press, and use the block as a drill guide for the hand drill when you drill the hub bolt holes.

If you want to get fancier, here is a plan for a more elaborate drill guide:

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/Wheel%20Hub%20Drill%20Jig.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 10:17 am:

Here's a suggestion building on what Wayne said.


Years ago, needing some weights to counterbalance a door, I went to a scrap yard and paid scrap prices for several pieces of 1" steel like this. They have since come in handy for uses other than as weights. I used a piece of one to make the puller on the right. The piece on the left, so far, is just a two pound weight until I use it for something else. One use would be as the kind of drill guide Wayne described. In the case of wheel bolt holes, I'd drill a 3/8" hole through it (making sure it's at 90), clamp the piece on the hub, and use the hole to guide my drill. If you don't have a saw stout enough for cutting off pieces, a scrap yard or a steel dealer should be able to do it for a dollar or two a cut.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 02:13 pm:

Had a talk with Steve Lang today on figuring out spoke size. In a word: complicated. Three possible sizes. I think the best suggestion from him was to take one out and send it in for measuring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, February 01, 2017 - 03:05 pm:

If all of your wheels are the same, please post two GOOD pictures of one of your wheels, one with the rim on, and one with the rim off. Someone on the forum may be able to tell you which spokes to buy based on the pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 01:08 am:

The rims are out for galvanizing right now so I don't have them. This is the best I could do for pictures.

Wheel

wheel 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 05:00 am:

Measure the small end of the spoke where it comes thru the rim. 21'' demountable wheel with 1/2'' or 5/8'' tenon. The photo is 1/2'' tenon, hickory.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

Measures at 0.589 inches for where the spoke goes through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 03:17 pm:

So it is a 1/2 inch tenon? I am told by Steve Lang that it isn't just the tenon, the length varies by 1/16th depending on Ford versus Kelsey-Hayes. So they offer 2 sizes of 30 x 3.5 wheel spokes:

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2800HS.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/2800HS-HY.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 03:37 pm:

Are you sure that you measured correctly?

I have a couple of spare brand new 1/2 inch tenon spokes from Lang's in the basement. I just measured the tenon diameter on one of them and it measured 0.54 inch diameter.

It makes sense that it is a little oversize for a 1/2 inch hole because the wood will compress a bit when you press the wheel and you want the spokes to be really tight in the felloe when you're done.

Assuming a 5/8 inch tenon would be the same amount of oversize, its diameter would be 0.665 inch.

From the pictures you posted, you appear to have Hayes felloes. Assuming that you have 1/2 inch tenon spokes and just mis-measured, you need to buy 50 of these (48 to use, plus 2 spare in case you screw up and crack or split one or two during pressing):

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2800HS-HY.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, February 02, 2017 - 03:42 pm:

It sounds like you plan to re-spoke your own wheels. If so, be sure to build a spoke press per John Regan's plans:

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/WheelpressA2.pdf

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/Wheel%20Hub%20Drill%20Jig.pdf

Here is an older thread showing how I did my wheels (this was my first attempt and it went well):

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/454203.html?1404960383


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 11:42 am:

.54 is EXACTLY the correct size for a new spoke. I have the factory drawing on them. Some of the dimensions on the spoke are so critical that there are 2 different dimensions. For instance the length of a spoke blank is different by about .033 inches when comparing before and after assembly. That is why the hub is supposed to be in place as you press the wheel together. The idea of machining the hole in the wheel center to fit in the hub is just not what they did or least that is not what the drawing seems to indicate. There is NOT any info I found on actual assembly procedure but if the length of the spoke changes after assembly then for sure the hub is in there very very tight. I could not move the hub in or out once assembled but I could rotate the hub with a lot of difficulty so starting with wheel number 2 that I ever built I paid more attention to making sure the holes were lined up on the seams of the spokes so at most I had to rotate the hub a small amount. You can rotate the hub after assembly by using a brass rod or small diameter brass drift and placing it against the edge of the top of the hub at a hole and then driving the punch so as to force the hub to rotate. You do this with no bolts in place or holes yet drilled. My wheels were very tight but I WAS able to rotate the hub a bit using this method. After building a wheel with new spokes I realized that old spokes being removed, re-finished, and re-installed was a mile away from how a new wheel would have fit together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, February 03, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

.54 is EXACTLY the correct size for a new spoke. I have the factory drawing on them. Some of the dimensions on the spoke are so critical that there are 2 different dimensions. For instance the length of a spoke blank is different by about .033 inches when comparing before and after assembly. That is why the hub is supposed to be in place as you press the wheel together. The idea of machining the hole in the wheel center to fit in the hub is just not what they did or least that is not what the drawing seems to indicate. There is NOT any info I found on actual assembly procedure but if the length of the spoke changes after assembly then for sure the hub is in there very very tight. I could not move the hub in or out once assembled but I could rotate the hub with a lot of difficulty so starting with wheel number 2 that I ever built I paid more attention to making sure the holes were lined up on the seams of the spokes so at most I had to rotate the hub a small amount. You can rotate the hub after assembly by using a brass rod or small diameter brass drift and placing it against the edge of the top of the hub at a hole and then driving the punch so as to force the hub to rotate. You do this with no bolts in place or holes yet drilled. My wheels were very tight but I WAS able to rotate the hub a bit using this method. After building a wheel with new spokes I realized that old spokes being removed, re-finished, and re-installed was a mile away from how a new wheel would have fit together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, February 06, 2017 - 03:44 am:

Two wheels have a notch at the mount bolt, 2 do not. See picture, are the 2 in front with the notch at the bolt Kelsey-Hayes and the 2 back ones without notch Ford?


wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 06, 2017 - 09:04 am:

The wheels with notched felloes are Hayes. I don't know about the others. The term "Kelsey Hayes" does not apply. They were two separate companies until 1927. A model T wheel can be Kelsey, or it can be Hayes, but it can't be both. Of course it can also be Firestone, Ford, Prudden, etc.


I believe Hayes rims are the only ones with a lug that extends inward past the bead.


And of course Hayes felloes have the notch to accommodate those lugs.

That doesn't mean the wheels and rims on you car are properly matched. Sometimes folks mismatch them because they don't know any better. In some cases that works OK, and in other cases it doesn't.

For much more information on the various wheels and rims, see Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Monday, February 06, 2017 - 11:14 am:

Ignacio - Steve is correct that the notched fellows are for Hayes rims. However, I am not convinced yet that these notched fellows were all made by Hayes. I have been trying to determine that by reading all the posts but there seems to be a lot of confusion amongst us. The main thing that throws me off is that Lang's catalog states that Hayes fellows are 20 13/16" inside diameter (ID). All my fellows are notched and they are 20 3/4" ID. Most of mine have 5/8" tenons but a few have 1/2" tenons. With all this said, who actually made the notched fellow is really not critical when you are respoking. The ID and the tenon size is very critical.

It is difficult to measure the ID of the fellow with the hub still in place. Your measurement in the photo is not across the center and you have it starting on the outside of the fellow. I advise that you disassemble the wheels to get a precise measurement across the center. The easiest way to find center is to measure at two opposite notches. I am positive that if Steve Lang knew the ID measurement along with the tenon size he would be able to get you exactly what you need.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 05:46 pm:

Rims are here!

Galvanized rims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 12:38 am:

Here are my rims. Two appear to be Hayes and two are Ford.

4 rims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 09:37 am:

Yep, both will work just fine on Hayes felloes, at least they do on mine. :-)


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