Check out the '09 Touring on HCCA classifieds!
Yeah, you don't see those up for sale too often.
Thanks John and Rob. It is a great car to see.
Motor # is 1910 as are many features. I posted earlier on this car.
would like to see the rest of the car. charley
Still a decent deal, it appears to have most of a set of good parts overall. Obviously a viewing in person might be a good idea before handing over the cash.
What is a decent 1910 worth? Running with correct drive train,leather,good top and good brass. I am thinking around $40K. Am I in the right ball park?
Depends on the ball park, right now it's football season!
I wish I had the money for such a thing. Any mostly correct late '09 or true '10 project is quite hard to come by. Most of the special parts are individually worth a fair piece also.
Not quite all, but most parts on these earliest Ts are quite different than anything that came later. Many of them, changed a few times in two short years. I haven't spent much time studying the photos of the OP car, but it looks like a good start. I don't like to appraise other people's cars, but based on similar projects I have seen, and knowing what a few of the individual pieces could and do sell for, I would fall into the camp of those that might say "show me a better one for less". Good mostly original '09s and '10s are few and far between anymore. Of course, before I would actually recommend it, I would have see more of it, and up close.
When I first saw the listing on the HCCA site a couple days ago (I was still trying to rush around and catch up from not having a good internet connection for a couple weeks), the first thing I thought of was Charley S's project for sale. His is more apart? But also looks to be mostly the right stuff! And if I recall correctly, about the same ball park price wise. I am not attempting to push or discourage either one of these projects. I hope both of them find proper homes and good quality restorations. If I had any way to do it, I think I would have given in to Charley S's awhile back myself. But I cannot.
Hey, Charley! You still got that pile?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Was this an original car (meaning born at the factory) or one assembled from parts?
wayne! yes it is still for sale.i have one guy thinking about the payment plan ha.ha.the car on hcca looks like an ok car but missing a lot of parts mine has. but maybe there is more parts not in pics.i would still kike to see more. charley
Took a look at the advertised 1909. No transmission under the hogshead (empty shell). Head is loosely assembled to the block. Unknown engine condition. no upholstery. No carburetor,etc. Looks like it was quickly assembled so it could be rolled around.
The car has new upholstery and new top with it, titled as 09 but is a 10. No carb intake exhaust, there is more parts than shown in the listing. The car is not a pieced together car but was dissembled long ago (40 to 50 years) and that man has died and car was left in his garage. I have seen pictures of the stuff that comes with it.
I am in Florida so I called & spoke at length yesterday with the Seller.
He has been reading this forum so I encouraged him to register & start a thread about the car so members here could help him figure out exactly what he has along with establishing market value.
I am the owner of This 1909 located in Florida. I can assure you this car is sitting as I bought it I did not assemble anything on the car. I bought it from an estate as is. I have many other parts that go with it that are not pictured. Any questions or additional pictures anyone would like to see I can provide. Any feedback good or bad I appreciate. I do feel that what I am asking for it is in the ball park for what I see out there. Can someone tell me what a restored 1909- 1910 is worth Today. Thanks Joe.
Joe, neat project you have for sale. Please take the following as being constructive. You're up against the age old paradox in this hobby.
Restored value has little relevance. Even if the car were given to you free and clear, if you hired someone to restore it, you would have more in it than it's worth. If you did the job yourself, farmed out the usual stuff like upholstery and whatnot, and didn't count your time working as your own project manager, you'd still do well to break even. After all of that, there is a world of difference in price amongst "restored" early T's depending on how well it was done and how truly correct it is, not to mention whether (in this case) it is really an '09 or a '10.
People buy and restore projects like this for reasons beyond what it is worth when it's finished because, if going at it purely from a dollar perspective, one will lose every time.
Your best bet for establishing market value is to determine what other similar projects are selling for. There are a number of parts piles out there that people are trying to hock continuously over a long period of time that simply do not sell. In a case like that, that would be your ceiling. As your project is currently presented, there are too many unanswered questions to make a determination as to value.
(Message edited by Wmh on February 04, 2017)
I agree with Freighter Jim
I also think Joe is truthful and it's as he purchased it. He was shocked when I showed him the flywheel/transmission was missing. With a one piece crankcase,can not check out the engine other than knowing it is not seized.
The top kit is incomplete and is missing the rear window section. The upholstery that he has is vinyl(not leather) and is incomplete. Do not know of any kits made for 1910; what is there may not fit. The brass has age cracks.
It doesn't matter that the transmission is not in the car. It may be with the parts collection. You can't see the trans when the car is built so it can have a later unit without offending he purists and affecting the value. Same goes for all the internal parts. We have built open valve engines with new cranks, rods, aluminum pistons and Stipe cams. Also ring gears on the flywheel hiding under that miserable square hole cover. It's the stuff you can see that means $$$.
I hate appraising cars. And I do not like most appraisers (with only a few notable exceptions). Most "professional appraisers" do NOT understand the complexities of many cars. 1909/'10 Ts are among the worst. They are extremely desirable, however there are literally hundreds of small details that severely affect the value. The top of the cream of the crop can sell over six figures. Others I have seen could not find a buyer for eight to ten thousand dollars (supposedly running cars).
I looked at the photos on the HCCA site. There is not enough detail shown to make a solid determination of the quality or correctness of the car. It clearly does have a great deal of potential, but whether that potential is to become a $70,000 car? Or a $35,000? With additional restoration costs of $30K to $40K? I cannot say.
A fine fellow that I like to consider a friend bought a 1910 recently. The car was an older restoration, of a real '10, tour proven, but needing some freshening. Most parts were correct for the build date of the car. He did get a bargain, as it was a hobbyist to hobbyist fair deal (the seller had had the car for many years, and wanted the car to have the best home he could get for it, the buyer was a long time well known expert that did not have really deep pockets, but was the best home). The price wasn't a lot more than what is being asked for this project.
A few years ago, another friend needed to quickly sell a late '09 in order to buy a car he wanted even more. The car was very nice, had several things wrong with it, but was mostly correct, and tour ready. He let it go for about $45K.
A project I looked at several years ago (about 5 years ago), was parted out because the fellow trying to sell it could not get $16,000 for a project that was easily half done. He had promised the family estate that he would "try" to sell it as a complete project, simply because their loved one had put so much effort into it before he died, that they wanted to know it got finished. In spite of the fact, that there were easily $30,000 worth of rare and desirable parts, nobody would cough up half that for the whole project. I spent an hour one day, just looking at the car, wishing I had SOME way to get it for myself, but alas, life has not treated me that well.
Even more sad, is the fact that I KNOW of two other similar projects, one of them since parted out, also now gone.
So, what IS this project really worth.
I don't mean to be disrespectful to the seller here. But I do wonder why he even has this. He mentions acquiring it, and he mentioned an estate. Was it a family member? He hasn't demonstrated much real interest in it, beyond getting it sold. I am always in favor of helping good antique automobile projects get into the hands of people that would be good to the car. Preservation of our history is a passion. One that many people will never understand.
Without seeing it in person, or much better pictures of it, I cannot know which way to fall with this one. It could be well worth the asking price. Or, like a few others I have seen in the past few years, not be able to sell for half that.
One problem the car does have, is a problem that many Ts of that specific era have. Things changed so fast in those two years, that the production of an individual car needs to be pinned down to about a month. There is a big difference between an early '10, and a mid '09. The engine block maybe should be the basis, for the claimed model year and month. Then all other parts assessed as to whether they are appropriate to that production time-frame. Only through such an assessment can it be determined whether it is an original car/restored, an original engine basis for a reassembled or recreated car, or an original car (of another production date) with an engine replaced. None of those final outcomes are wrong. But they do affect the car's final value (along with the expected costs of restoration), and therefore the value of the project.
Just more musings from me.
Good luck! I do hope the car finds a wonderful home! (Maybe, even you may realize what a wonderful thing it is and catch a terminal case of the model Ts!)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
This is a wooden body and therefore an especially fickle animal. Many restored wooden bodies of this era have major portions, if not the entire wooden coach replaced. You can correctly body finish one of these panels where it looks perfect today, and a month later it has warped or grained-out for absolutely no good reason. A replacement of this coach is approximately $4000.00, and you should expect it will cost that much again to straighten and finish it.