1927 Touring Rear Outer Bearing Problem

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: 1927 Touring Rear Outer Bearing Problem
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Chester on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 07:34 pm:

After getting the front bearings of my '27 Touring fixed up last weekend, I took on the rear end this weekend. Pulled driver's side rear wheel and hub was full of thin, black grease. Emergency brake lining was covered in baked on grease. Clear signs it needs some work. Now setting out to take care of business and have a couple questions, so figured I'd come here for sage wisdom.

Q1: The bearing is stuck. I can't get it out. I used needle nose in the bearing holes and am able to spin it, albeit it's pretty tough to spin. The question is, how the heck to I get the bearing out. I tried fashioning a hook with a coat hangar and stuck it in the little hole in the sleeve to hook the bearing, but when I pull, the hangar straightens out and the bearing stays put. It's pretty stuck.

Q2: What type of bearing grease do I use on the new bearing? I have a LOT of red bearing grease from my front end work...will that work on the rear bearings? I watched Steve Jelfs' video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfxWPsF4KhQ&list=UUFVx528ORtpDgCPJXbFCA6w) and he seems to be using a light colored grease.

Q3: What type of sealant do I use on the new neoprene inner seal? Steve used a black substance from what looked like a Permatex tube, but I couldn't see the name.

Q4: What else do I need to know? Something that might have caught the veterans here off guard.

bearing1

lining1

Grease1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 09:18 pm:

I use a Snap On fitter pin removal tool to pull wheel bearings.

Red grease is fine for those bearings.

I never use any sealant on axle seals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 09:31 pm:

Royce, did you mean to say a "Cotter Pin" Removal Tool? Cannot google up a "fitter pin". Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

Some times the bearing wears a lip around the end and you have to get the bearing rollers over the lip before it will come out.
You might have to twist, pull and jiggle the axle at the same time. The new style inner seals don't really need any sealer, they get smooshed between the sleeve and the rivet ring that is just past them. Red works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Chester on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 10:16 pm:

Ah, thanks all. I appreciate the advice!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 10:57 pm:

While the seals may be fine without adding any sealant, my theory is that a little bit of Ultra Black can't hurt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 11:16 pm:

It appears that something was scrubbing on the bearing and may have distorted it. What condition was the washer, felt and cap. Was the hub assembly pressing up against it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James M. Riedy, Sandusky, Ohio on Saturday, February 04, 2017 - 11:36 pm:

Raymond, I found that running the axle nut back on I could use a wrench to turn the axle while I hooked the bearing with a coat hanger. Made it come out a lot easier this way. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 09:24 am:

Get help. Have that helper take the axle weight off the bearing. Chances are it's in a wear groove on the sleeve which is usually on the upper half.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 10:11 am:

Picture of a cotter pin removal tool:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 04:46 pm:

If you have access to a welder, if all else fails, bend a piece of stock into a u shape long enough to clear the axle end and tack to each side of the bearing cage. Use this as a handle to shake, rattle and roll or pull the offending bearing out. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Chester on Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 04:09 pm:

OK, update and new questions. Much thanks for the tip on the cotter pin removal tool (CPRT). After breaking the tip off my brand new CPRT and bending the tip of my needle nose pliers, I finally was able to get a flathead screwdriver behind the end of the bearing while spinning the wheel far enough to get after in with channel lock pliers. 45 mins of spin/twist/pull, the bearing finally came. It was almost like it had been glued in there the grease was so funky. The sleeve was tough also, but I won!!

So, next round of questions.

1) The new bearing has fewer rollers. Is that a problem? Will I feel it while driving?

(Old Bearing...the bad spots are from the channel locks)
oldbearing2

(New Bearing)
newbearing2

2) Any tips to get the inner seal out? It appears to be rubber or neoprene (definitely not felt or leather). How do I get after it?

oldseal2

I like how the new seal is built...neoprene with steel backing for the new bearing to travel on (though I now wonder how I'll get IT out when the time comes.)

Appreciate any inputs!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Chester on Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 04:24 pm:

David, the felt was crushed pretty tight. The washer between the felt and the bearing had wear marks where the bearing and the washer met. Figured that was normal, but perhaps the cap was too tight?

James, good tip on running the nut back up to be able to spin the axle. It was very "influential".

Mark, you called it...the old sleeve had grooves. Probably why it was such a bear to work out. That and the glue-like grease.

Steve, I have my Ultra Black handy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 05:02 pm:

Don't use the new bearings. Get good used original one's only; especially on the outer part of the axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 05:32 pm:

Andy is right, all those new bearings are good for is to throw at dogs. They and the sleeves they come with will wear out in no time and ruin your axle shaft. Find a used sleeve and roller that mikes out good and use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 05:40 pm:

The new ones are bad news - they're not engineered like Ford original Hyatts.
Original rollers were made out of spring steel in a spiral, making the bearing rollers slightly flexible. The stiff repro rollers can't flex as they should.

Maybe your old bearing isn't really bad? Check the cage by twisting the ends in opposite directions. If stiff, inspect the roller surfaces - shouldn't start to flake and they should measure minimun about 0.496" in diameter. If yours aren't good enough to reuse, good originals should be easy enough to find - like at the Chickasha swap in March or with a classified ad here.

Use the modern neoprene seals on the inside of the new sleeves. Check the axle for damages. Has the break prone original babbitt thrust washers been replaced inside the differential?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Chester on Saturday, February 11, 2017 - 05:53 pm:

Roger, Everything looks good on the old bearing except for where the teeth of the channel lock pliers ate at them pretty good (see picture above) and I bent the end when prying on it to get the bearing out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, February 12, 2017 - 09:47 pm:

The bent end should be able to bend back fairly easy - and the damage from the pliers isn't really significant. If the cages are stiff, you'll be fine using the bearings. If there are ridges from wear in the outer sleeves, it's best to replace them. The repro sleeves should work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, February 13, 2017 - 11:03 am:

Raymond,

Measure the roller diameters accurately, like with a micrometer or good calipers, and let us know what you find.


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