Side lights and tail light

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Side lights and tail light
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Anziani on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 08:23 am:

Looking for pictures for location of the oil burning side lights and tail light for a later model coupe
Thinking about installing them on mine, but would like the proper locations
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 09:01 am:

Hi Bill,

You mention "later model coupe" and "proper location". Well, coupes never came from the factory with side lights, so there is no proper location. I suppose that since you want the "retro" look on your modern coupe you could mount the lamps wherever they look best to you. Good luck with your project, Bill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 12:21 pm:

How later model is your coupe?

There are 3 different mounting brackets available for those sidelights.

1919 to 1922 is one type.

1923 to 1025 is another type.

1926 to 1927 is the last type.

I have an extra set of the 1919 to 1922 type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 12:32 pm:

Hi Jim,

I did not know that there were factory mounting brackets to attach oil lamps onto the coupes. Would these brackets also fit onto the sedans? Could you post pictures of these brackets?

I do love this forum as I always learn something new. Thank you. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

I thought all of the "24 through "27 closed cars came with a starter, hence no sidelights? Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Anziani on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 02:07 pm:

Mine is a 24. I saw some non starter cars with these


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 02:36 pm:

Huh.

I have, for decades, had the understanding that ALL enclosed cars came "factory equipped" with starter, generator, battery AND demountables; NO sidelights.

The open cars were a different matter and COULD be ordered as a "bare bones" car without the demountables and the "battery" package.

Am I wrong? Always wanting to learn. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 05:53 pm:

Bill, H., that is my understanding also. Bill A., I would guess that if you saw a '24 closed car with sidelights, they were added later. JMHO. When I first got my '25 coupe, I toyed with the idea of adding sidelights, but I didn't want to drill holes in the original body. That was before I found out they didn't come that way. Glad I didn't. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 07:06 pm:

Hi David,

The "answer" to this enclosed car-side light conundrum just came to me:

It is an Alternative Fact! Huge! Believe me. This will make Enclosed Cars great again. Drill, baby, drill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 08:26 pm:

:-) :-) :-) :-) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 08:36 pm:

Here is a photo of a pair of brackets for the 1923 to 1925 cowl lights and the lights.

Lights


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 08:51 pm:

Those brackets are advertised for use on open cars in Langs catalog on page 87 and website, but it looks like they would work on a closed car.

The 1923 to 1925 Part Number is 3655AS

I have been wrong before though.

These are brass instead of iron, but painted black they will look the same.

The catalog text:

Side lamp brackets, primed to be painted black, pair. Used on open cars
Model T 3655AS - Side lamp brackets, black, pair
Item Number: 3655AS
Per Car: 1
Year: 1923-1925
Condition: New
Price: $32.75 pair


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, February 05, 2017 - 10:01 pm:

An opinion. The absolute correct answer to this may never be found. I suspect that a few coupes and maybe even center-door sedans may have had sidelamps as late as 1922, whether actually from the factory, or dealer installed. If they were added by the dealer? Would they be called "original" that way? (That alone could be debated forever, and reminds me of the middle ages debate of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?")

I have seen the prevailing opinion on this go from "absolutely they did have sidelamps on enclosed cars" to "absolutely they did NOT", to a middle ground of "yes, they were done, but rare", back to "not ever, never, not even".
I have seen a few late enclosed cars claimed to have sidelamps from new. And , I tended to believe it a long time ago. In retrospect, I believe probably all of those cars had had the lamps added at some later time than "when new".
I have spent almost as much time studying original era photographs as anybody. Hundreds of those hours I have studied details through a magnifying glass (at home, it is ALWAYS nearby). Many years ago, I looked at a few that purported to prove that sidelamps were originally available on later enclosed cars. In retrospect, those were pictures I do not have ready access to these days. And, after looking at literally hundreds, maybe even thousands, of original era photos of '21 to '27 enclosed cars, I doubt the original conclusions drawn on some of the pictures I was shown so many years ago (they were not my conclusions in the first place). The simple fact is, I think a few of those photos were mis-dated (a 1918 or early '19 coupe or center-door, mislabeled as a '22 or '23). A few others, I suspect were photos taken years after the car was new, maybe even as late as the 1950s, after sidelamps had been added to please a hobbyist. Having studied so many photos I find that such photos are more common than one might believe. Just because it is an old car, parked in front of an old house, does not mean the picture was taken in the '20s. At least twice, the television set, visible through the house's door or window, was the ultimate clue.
Over the years, I have personally seen hundreds of restored model T coupes and sedans. Quite a few had sidelamps on them. Most were known to have been added in recent years. They do look nice that way, I won't put anyone down for putting them on their car. But, after 1923? I doubt that even a handful of enclosed cars left the factory with sidelamps mounted on them. I am sure that a few owners and dealers added them, maybe within a couple days of delivery.


As for brackets? I don't think the open car brackets shown above will fit or work well on either a coupe or a sedan. I can't visualize any proper angles for them on a good location for mounting on any of the bodies. These brackets were meant to mount on the open car windshield mounting bolts. There were several different brackets used, earlier on coupes and center-door sedans, as well as offered for use on trucks, that could work well on the later sedans and coupes.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, February 06, 2017 - 02:29 pm:

Page 82 of the Ford Price List of Body Parts for the Model T, dated March 15, 1927, show the brackets in my photo above for the 1924 to 1926 Open Cab TT Truck.

The itemized nomenclature does not list them or any cowl lights.

The same brackets are not shown on any of the car photos, open or closed cars, in this book.


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