So what ARE the prices on cars doing?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: So what ARE the prices on cars doing?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 08:36 am:

I keep reading mixed opinions. Some are saying that prices on T's are dropping. Others say that trend only applies to the later black cars while the brass T's are actually going up? I've admittedly only been looking these last several months. So what's your opinion on the subject?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 08:44 am:

Here's my take on it.

For the past 30+ years people have been moaning that Model T prices are dropping. If that were so true, we'd have to pay to get rid of them by now.

That being said, it seems that any one I've ever considered buying was being offered by someone who hasn't been informed that prices are dropping.

Last, of those who moaned about dropping prices, they didn't seem to want any less for their cars when they came up for sale.


Bottom line, don't buy any antique based on future value. Buy it cause you like it and can afford it, then enjoy it. If the value goes up, then great, if not, so what, you had fun and the decreased value was your price of admission to the game.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 08:57 am:

Jerry Van sums it up pretty accurately. I made a good profit on selling my TT firetruck, which is why I let it go. As for brass cars, one look around and you'll see there's a chronic lack of any decent ones around. Sure, there's a handful of barn finds, I know of a couple very early touring barn-find types commanding even a fairly high price at that. Supply vs. demand. Black cars, are well, pretty much a dime a dozen at this point. They have to be fairly pristine with fully rebuilt mechanicals in order to command an "upper level" price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Redelman, Kouts, IN on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 09:06 am:

I'm with Jerry but I'll add that the price of a car no matter the quality or condition is determined by how bad the seller wants rid of his or her or in the case of their (estate). This is why we see such a wide range of cost for antique cars. Also the average age of the owners of early autos all types are getting older. Also as new buyers emerge from the population the cars they are really interested in and are willing to shell out some real cash for are increasing in age, just look what the muscle cars go for at auction. Soon the same thing will happen to this type of auto as is what is going on to our cars (1903-1927) it is the same old supply verse demand thingy. Just my .02 to the take of time. Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 09:21 am:

Definition of a Bargain. When both halves think they got the better end of the deal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 10:40 am:

For the past six months, I've been helping a friend find a 13 or 14 roadster or touring. Most of the restored examples I've seen are priced around $20,000, and most of them have the incorrect engine, and all kinds of flaws. He finally found a '14 roadster for $14,000. It looks real good in the pictures, so I hope he is satisfied with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:43 am:

Larry I would think that's a pretty good deal for a '14 if its in any kind of decent shape & a steal if the engines been rebuilt fairly recently.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:59 am:

Hey Larry,
I know the couple of emails we've exchanged doesn't quite put me in the 'friend' category yet, but if you run across a decent '13 runabout at a price like that '14 your friend just found, I'd certainly appreciate it if you kept me in mind. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 12:22 pm:

Model T's are CHEAP in ANY sense of measure Going up, going down. Compare
them to any big fin ragtop or muscle car and one realizes just how cheap they are.

You get a lot of bang for the buck with a little old T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bryan Grube on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 12:36 pm:

I think the black cars are a bargain. They are essentially the same as the brass cars for 1/4 the price. But you are excluded from the brass car experience officially but not physically. I've had both, and I think the black T is more fun with less upkeep, and worry about ruining an engine you may never find a replacement for. Plus, for the price I sold the brass T for, I bought a very nice black T plus a very nice Model A. There are a lot of neat things you can do with a black T such as a custom body or a speedster, or collect aftermarket accessories on it to set it apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

Every time I see the asking prices for brass cars and their unique parts, I thank my lucky stars that I bought a black car (see my profile for a picture of Betsy). :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 12:59 pm:

I have both, I like black better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:00 pm:

Once you go black ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:01 pm:

B'sides .... black cars matter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:33 pm:

Traditionally this is the best time of the year to buy.

Folks are getting ready to pay taxes, credit card bills for the holidays are due, the touring season is not starting for a few months for most of the country.

Add to that a bad winter for most of the country.

But all classic & vintage car sales have significantly slowed since October.

Folks just do not seem to be buying.


Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:40 pm:

Darn you Burger..I was just gonna say that... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:54 pm:

Big house auctions are a tiger shark feeding frenzy and have no comparison to the real world! LOL :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 02:13 pm:

The black cars just hit the magic 100 year mark. It might improve their value to many. Personally, I prefer them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:02 pm:

I really get tired of polishing all that brass. Our brass cars sit idle in the barn while the later models get driven frequently. I don't feel right running a brass car as hard as I drive the black cars because it hurts more when you blow up the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Thomas on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 12:04 am:

Since my 3 month ownership of a '25 RPU, my observations are that the good cars sell fast. As do the good parts. There is massive demand for these cars, much more than I anticipated. Also, as the age survey has shown, there are plenty of younger people ready to step up to the plate. The Model T is so far lucky to have avoided the idiotic speculation and fever that has infected a lot of the old car hobby. Steady measured growth and sensible prices are the secret to longevity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 12:46 am:

Antique cars is kind of an "old guys" hobby (I'm one of them). Yes, there are some young people in the hobby. A lot of our car clubs around here have not gone out looking for younger members. The majority of our local clubs are declining in membership. When "pops" dies, the kids (who a lot of times are not interested) have a whole estate to deal with. Generally a lot of stuff. If there are only one or two kids, they generally look for a quick clean-up so they can get on with their life. We have private sales and auctions going on constantly around here. Right now, I'd say there is a flood of Model T's available. Perhaps lots of bargains. I guess it depends on how you look at prices. Will there be younger people interested enough to go buy those cars? The real question is, will the price go up because of demand no matter how old the new buyer is? So far, I've not heard of anyone taking the cars to the dump because no one would buy them! On the other hand, I think unrestored Model T parts piles are a hard sell (not as hard as "off" brand parts piles tho). The most popular vehicles right now seem to be the original unrestored cars. For the first time in history, antique cars have become truly "antique" by the definition (antique furniture, dishes, etc must be 100 years old to be called "antique"). "Antiques" (like in furniture) that are "restored" are worth less than a nice original. I think the same will be true in cars. Like any investment though, it's generally not a good move to put all of your money in one thing. I used to think antique cars would always be a good investment. I'm not so sure now. We don't have manual arts training in schools anymore. The amount of younger folks that have the skills to restore a car seem to be less than years ago. On the other hand, I believe that it is still the nature of some folks to want to built/restore/maintain something. An old car could be just the ticket!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 01:15 am:

I think the price of anything for sale is set by the greed of the seller and the enthusiasm of the buyer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 06:26 am:

Good clean parts sell, common rusty stuff, not so well. That's been my experience as a vendor at Hershey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 07:16 am:

Or you could be like me and actually go looking for a black car in "farm-used" condition and know that they're cheap and be thrilled about it.

I've never looked at old cars as investments and tend to buy and keep the things forever (much to my wife's chagrin).

We're only here for a flash of time...way too little time to worry about what old car prices are doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 08:07 am:

In my area of the Midwest it seems that prices are pretty stable. Dumping in tons of cash into restoring a car doesn't seem to do much for value at sales time. Sometimes asking prices are high for both black cars and brass cars, but actual sales prices are a different matter. Some folks seem to stubbornly hold on to their inflated asking prices and ultimately wind up holding on to their cars as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 08:53 am:

I don't think the price of Ts has moved much in the past 5 years.

When I was looking for a 13 back in 2011 I saw that REALLY nice and correct cars were selling, including at auction, for between $20-30K. Unrestored correct cars from $10-15K. That's pretty much where prices are today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 09:34 am:

I somehow got on an e-mailing list from e-bay which reports to me on all the online auctions of complete and intact Model T Fords. _I get that report, with links to all the cars including photos, once a week. _The thing I notice from that, as of recent months, is a lack of brass Model T's on the block. _Plenty of black Flivvers, but very, very few brass ones. _Apparently, owners are hanging on to the brass Fords and, of course, that decreases supply. _When supply decreases, prices of the item in shortage naturally go up.

Is that a good thing? _The answer is: That depends. _What's good for the collector-car hobby isn't necessarily good for the individual investor. _Part of what keeps the Model T segment of the hobby so very healthy is that the Tin Lizzie is the cheapest of all collector-cars and that allows a greater number of folks to get involved.

Now, I don't really give a rodent's rear what my '15 Touring is worth, and you'd have to pay me more than twice its market value to pry it out of my hands. _That's because I've spent lots of time and non-recoverable dollars to make it a safer, more powerful, tour-ready, traffic-jamming daily-driver (12-volt electrical system including alternator, starter, brake lights, front and rear turn signals, 4-way flashers, 5:1 steering, underhand front wishbone, hi-compression head, hi-flow manifold, NH carb, etc.—all of which make the car less original and so, market-wise, actually reduce its value).

My Ford's relatively modest dollar-worth only makes it easier to afford insurance. _Easy ownership is healthy for the collector-car hobby. _If I were an investing speculator, I might feel differently—but I'm not, so I don't. _I just wanna have some good, clean, family-fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David C Jahnke on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 10:24 am:

I wonder how many current owners of Model T's have them because a parent or grandparent had a Model T as a collector car in the past. In some cases they have inherited a car, and in other cases, they purchased a Model T because of fond memories.

It seems that the further away you get from the original collector owner, the less interest there is by other family members. The younger generation do not really seem to have that much interest in cars in general, so it is not surprising that in an estate situation, no one in the family wants a Model T. You also have the issue that fewer and fewer people are learning the skills necessary to keep an old car running. The end result is you have an increasing supply of Model T's for sale at a time when there are fewer potential buyers.

There have always been many more black Model T's than brass ones, even 57 years ago when my father restored his 1918 Model T. As a result, they are always more desirable, and availability seems to go in cycles. Some years there seem to be a lot, and other years, very few. But they do always show up, and prices are still quite reasonable.

The last issue that affects Model T interest is safety. In the 1960s, all cars were basically unsafe by modern standards, so no one really thought twice about driving their Model T. Today, cars are so much safer, and there is much more awareness about safety in general, that driving a Model T feels much riskier than it did in the past. Most bicyclists now wear helmets. In the 1960s, no one did. Child safety seats did not exist, and now you can be arrested for failing to use one. The list goes on, but the result is just another reason why there is less interest in Model T's in general, and the situation will only get worse over time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 10:36 am:

Here's a black T price if you're looking for one. "Good price" :-)

http://m.autotrader.ca/a/5_17580973?ursrc=mb_mhl&upsp=1&upsc=1&prx=-1&orup=1_10_ 2&srt=3&showVs=1

(Message edited by 404_not_found on February 09, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 10:36 am:

Fact is if you buy a car from a "T Guy" that is an owner that's worked on it & kept it going for (sometimes) a long time you're going pay for it. My first was from an estate sale. I stole that car. Completely done "27 Tudor. Well under $3500. My two "23 Touring's were bought from old timers that had no further use for or could no longer drive them. You don't want to know what I paid for each. Between these cars I looked at several others being sold by the T Guys I mentioned and walked. They were all asking what I got for my 3 hence my theory about T buying. I check out Hemming's for comic relief.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 11:36 am:

I've been around Model T's all my life. Prices have never been higher. Black ones are still cheap. Good brass ones are still expensive. You can easily get screwed buying one without the knowledge to do so. You still can't make a profit owning or restoring one unless you are a very shrewd businessman.

If you are wanting to enjoy the cars and make a profit you will probably be better off just looking at them, rather than owning one or three or ten. They are like gold, they don't appreciate, they just keep pace with inflation. A wise man once said the quickest way to double your money is to fold it in half and put it back in your pocket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 11:44 am:

Someone asked me what I'd do (with old cars) if I won the lottery.

I replied, "I guess I'd keep buying, restoring and selling them until I went through all the money"

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 01:37 pm:

I am not in the hobby to make money but if you stop and think about it what else can you spend your money on that doesn't depreciate in value and provides untold hours of use and enjoyment. I have owned most of my cars for many years and they are certainly worth more than I paid for them but that is not the issue for me as I don't expect any of them to be sold unless it is an estate sale! The time that I have enjoyed touring and working on my cars make them a great investment as far as I am concerned!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 01:44 pm:

The only hobby car I ever made good money on was a 1971 Plymouth Barracuda convertible, I sold it for double what I paid for it. It has since doubled in price every time it has changed hands since then.

I was able to sell my low mileage 1969 Plymouth Valiant 100 2-door for the same price I paid for it after enjoying it for three years.

For all the others, I've always taken a loss, especially taking into account the amount spent to restore them.

Rule #1 - never total up the bills! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Lebeda, Humboldt, SD on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 07:09 pm:

I am with Val on this. Have had comments from relatives (in-laws) and some friends like WHY do you do this, spend money on cars. I respond it is a good hobby where you can spend money buying a car; and most of the time at least break even if you sell it. Unlike other hobbies where you spend or buy and never recoup your expenditures. But I like those other hobbies too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 08:22 pm:

I'm new to this hobby, but a military vehicle collector and have spent a lot of time at car shows and exhibits. If I interested in a car, and the owners says he just wants to get out of it what he has in it . . . I walk away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Perkins / St. Croix Valley Mn on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 09:10 pm:

I have sold eight brass T's in the past 16 years, all quickly, easily and for my asking price. I try very hard to be fair in price and honest in description and no buyer has ever been disappointed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Perkins / St. Croix Valley Mn on Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 09:29 pm:

I have sold eight brass T's in the past 16 years, all quickly, easily and for my asking price. I try very hard to be fair in price and honest in description and no buyer has ever been disappointed.


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